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Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? #2818081 02/20/19 04:34 PM
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When I turned 60 I decided to learn to play piano, something I’d always wanted to do. I have a decent digital piano and thought I’d try Skype lessons because I work full time (plus) and thought I’d rather spend my available time practicing rather than travelling to lessons.

Fast forward 2.5 years and I’ve been through 3 teachers and haven’t learned very much. I want to say up front that I'm a very agreeable person and easy to get a long with, so I hope you don't think a difficult person. I can run scales pretty well, know basic chords, but it’s just not working. My interest is in R&B & jazz mostly.

For one thing, they teach me a song, I barely learn to play it, and we move on. As a result, I can’t go back and play them, as I never really learned them in the first place. They all teach by rote, so I don’t really understand things like, why is a song written in a particular key? Are the chord sequences typical for this type of music? Why don’t we ever learn the intro? How can I play this with some type of background drums or other instruments, so I get a feel for playing in a band? I ask these questions and it’s always, we’ll get to that, or we spend 2 minutes on it and move to the next thing. They have a set way of teaching and I feel like I just don’t fit into it. On the other hand I need them to lead me forward; my first teacher kept asking me what I wanted to do and I didn’t really know how to respond except to say I want to learn to play.

I’ve liked each teacher, but after about 4-5 months I find I’m not looking forward to the lessons; in fact, I get nervous that I didn’t learn enough, or won’t play correctly, and I end up wanting the lesson to be over quickly. It kind of reminds me of my school days… I wasn’t a good student so maybe there are some bad feelings from then.

Meanwhile, I’ve stuck with it. I practice 6 days a week for about 45 minutes a day and look forward to it. For the past two months I’ve been teaching myself, working on just one song, which I pretty much have down. I’ve enjoyed it because I’ve been able to really learn each section, not have to practice 2 or 3 other things and worry that I’ll be ready for the lesson. I’ve done the chord inversions myself which has helped me understand how chords work and resemble each other.

Despite liking practicing by myself, I really would like to find a good teacher. I think what I’d like is a person who could teach me in a “project” way, like I’m doing by myself. For example, I’d like to pick a song that I like, talk about when & why it was written (briefly), what the style is, why the arrangement and key was chosen, and then thoroughly learn it. And learn why those particular chords work together, why these notes work with those chords, etc. Then, for the next song, learn something a little similar (e.g., same key or composer) but with new and/or different elements added.

Ultimately, I want to compose some ideas that I have but realize I need to learn to play first.

I know this is long-winded, but if anyone has good ideas, let me know. Again, online is preferred, but maybe that’s the problem. I just don’t know.

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Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818090 02/20/19 04:47 PM
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At the risk of sounding completely obvious and trite, you've clearly had the wrong teachers. Have you been interviewing your teachers before you engage them? I can imagine a first one that doesn't fit, and maybe a second one if you are very unlucky and they misrepresented themselves to you in an interview, but 3?!?! It sounds like you are doing something wrong in picking and working with your teachers. Because what you described, and especially your dissatisfaction with it (assuming you've expressed this dissatisfaction to your teachers) is not normal/usual in my view, and you shouldn't tolerate it since these are your lessons, not theirs.


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Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818095 02/20/19 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
My interest is in R&B & jazz mostly.

For one thing, they teach me a song, I barely learn to play it, and we move on. As a result, I can’t go back and play them, as I never really learned them in the first place. They all teach by rote.....


I think what I’d like is a person who could teach me in a “project” way, like I’m doing by myself. For example, I’d like to pick a song that I like, talk about when & why it was written (briefly), what the style is, why the arrangement and key was chosen, and then thoroughly learn it. And learn why those particular chords work together, why these notes work with those chords, etc. Then, for the next song, learn something a little similar (e.g., same key or composer) but with new and/or different elements added.

I suggest you copy & post your complete OP in the Non-Classical Forum, where all the jazzers reside. One or two of them are teachers, but they don't come on here.

Personally, based on what you've said, I believe you'd be better off learning what you like by yourself rather than having a teacher who teaches by rote. There's plenty of stuff in books as well as YT for jazzers. Aren't some of the best jazzers "self-taught"?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2818098 02/20/19 05:00 PM
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Maybe find a teacher close to your place of work. There are several ways to learn piano; you can try to aim at a given purpose such as learning r and b, or you can just learn to play the piano. My suggestion is the latter. Let the teacher take charge and follow the teacher.

Songs may be written in a particular key to help them sell. Or to accommodate the highest note that most people have. Keys also have different moods. D major is happier and more triumphal than F major. But who cares? Why not just play in the key you have?

As a piano teacher I encounter many students who have too many goals but who practice too little of anything to make any goal a reality. My suggestion is to put your goals aside and just learn to play the piano.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818113 02/20/19 05:39 PM
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Tyrone - Yes, I think I must be doing something wrong picking teachers. It's embarrassing to say I've had 3 in 2 years, but that's how it is.

Bennevis - you say it's better to be self-taught than to learn by rote, and I agree. What I'm looking for is a teacher that doesn't teach by rote, if there's such a thing.

Candywoman - my goal is to just learn to play. I actually like almost all genres, so that's not an issue. But to learn I need a project model, at least that's how I learn most stuff in life. Memorizing lists of number and vocabulary words was always difficult for me without some way of connecting them each other. Anyway I'll figure this out eventually, thanks.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818117 02/20/19 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
Bennevis - you say it's better to be self-taught than to learn by rote, and I agree. What I'm looking for is a teacher that doesn't teach by rote, if there's such a thing.
.
But to learn I need a project model, at least that's how I learn most stuff in life. Memorizing lists of number and vocabulary words was always difficult for me without some way of connecting them each other.

If you're prepared to learn to play piano (as opposed to learn to play jazz & R&B, from day 1), you'd be far, far better off in the long run.

Learn to play piano properly first (including reading music and relevant theory - using lead sheets is a walk in the park after that), then you can branch out into your preferred genre later. Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea and Elton John all did.

Don't get too caught up with what you believe should be your route towards stardom (or whatever): get the basics mastered first, and then everything else comes naturally.

BTW, I've no idea what you mean by memorizing "lists of number and vocabulary words". I'm a classical pianist, and I never did that kind of memorizing. Is that a mysterious thing that jazzers are supposed to do?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bennevis] #2818127 02/20/19 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by bythecshore
Bennevis - you say it's better to be self-taught than to learn by rote, and I agree. What I'm looking for is a teacher that doesn't teach by rote, if there's such a thing.
.
But to learn I need a project model, at least that's how I learn most stuff in life. Memorizing lists of number and vocabulary words was always difficult for me without some way of connecting them each other.

If you're prepared to learn to play piano (as opposed to learn to play jazz & R&B, from day 1), you'd be far, far better off in the long run.

Learn to play piano properly first (including reading music and relevant theory - using lead sheets is a walk in the park after that), then you can branch out into your preferred genre later. Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea and Elton John all did.

Don't get too caught up with what you believe should be your route towards stardom (or whatever): get the basics mastered first, and then everything else comes naturally.

BTW, I've no idea what you mean by memorizing "lists of number and vocabulary words". I'm a classical pianist, and I never did that kind of memorizing. Is that a mysterious thing that jazzers are supposed to do?

He's talking about in school, I think. Not music. As for music, he just needs a good teacher. There are not many of them.

This is how I start all people, any age:

Lines and spaces, special drills to get that done fast.

Triads in each key, then ASAP 7 chords, name the chords. This is vital for later playing slash chords.

Scales.

You need these things for any style of music. And so on...

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818139 02/20/19 07:32 PM
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If you are really serious and especially if you live near LA, you should look up Planet Mullins, Rob Mullins post on PW on occasion.
And I agree you may want to post this in the Non-Classical forum.


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Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818217 02/20/19 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
What I'm looking for is a teacher that doesn't teach by rote, if there's such a thing.

Certainly there are. My teacher doesn't teach by rote. I'm surprised you haven't encountered any. That's why I was wondering about how you are interviewing teachers, because I'm mystified how you are apparently screening out ones that don't teach by rote.

What backgrounds did your 3 teachers have? Were the teachers or performers?


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2818221 02/21/19 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bythecshore
What I'm looking for is a teacher that doesn't teach by rote, if there's such a thing.

Certainly there are. My teacher doesn't teach by rote. I'm surprised you haven't encountered any. That's why I was wondering about how you are interviewing teachers, because I'm mystified how you are apparently screening out ones that don't teach by rote.

What backgrounds did your 3 teachers have? Were the teachers or performers?

They problem here, which is something that Keystring talks about, is that students don't know what to ask for until they are armed with information.

Each adult who comes to me starts trusting that I know what I'm doing. Most just pick me at random, and I tell them that they are lucky, because that is NOT how to pick a teacher.

Of course we all know that a competent teacher at least tries to teach all students to read. Obviously there are some teachers who work only on ear, and for the right student that may work, but I don't think it's the right solution for most people.

But if you don't know that, how are you going to find out? Coming here would be one answer.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: Gary D.] #2818230 02/21/19 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
They problem here, which is something that Keystring talks about, is that students don't know what to ask for until they are armed with information.

Each adult who comes to me starts trusting that I know what I'm doing. Most just pick me at random, and I tell them that they are lucky, because that is NOT how to pick a teacher.

That maybe should be an entire subject. I've bring up the subject recently, but it got lost in some intestine debates (in a way, that's ok, since the OP on the other subject haven't got back, if I'm not mistaken).

I picked my first teacher at random. Eh, I know nothing. Any teacher will know more than me, right?
But it was a mistake. And I only realized when I had to change.
Even now, I couldn't tell if my teacher is good. I like him and I think he helps me progress.

So, anyway, I'm not in a position to give advice. But the question is of interest to me, even though I don't have the same background and goals as you.
I hope you'll find useful answers in here.


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Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Rameau, Les Sauvages
- Mozart, K545, 1st mov
- Chopin, nocturne op. posth. in C# minor
- Debussy, Golliwog's cakewalk
- Pozzoli, E.R. 427, etude no. 6
Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: CadenzaVvi] #2818236 02/21/19 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CadenzaVvi
Originally Posted by Gary D.
They problem here, which is something that Keystring talks about, is that students don't know what to ask for until they are armed with information.

Each adult who comes to me starts trusting that I know what I'm doing. Most just pick me at random, and I tell them that they are lucky, because that is NOT how to pick a teacher.

That maybe should be an entire subject. I've bring up the subject recently, but it got lost in some intestine debates (in a way, that's ok, since the OP on the other subject haven't got back, if I'm not mistaken).

I picked my first teacher at random. Eh, I know nothing. Any teacher will know more than me, right?
But it was a mistake. And I only realized when I had to change.
Even now, I couldn't tell if my teacher is good. I like him and I think he helps me progress.

So, anyway, I'm not in a position to give advice. But the question is of interest to me, even though I don't have the same background and goals as you.
I hope you'll find useful answers in here.

You don't know what a great teacher is until you have one. Then you know.

My grandmother was just a neighborhood teacher, but she gave me a lot. I got into trouble when I got to teacher #2, because my grandmother knew I was talented and that I was outgrowing what she could teach me. So I got a lady in town how had a rep. She studied with Harold Bauer (look him up), so on paper she was the best.

SHE WAS AWFUL.

But no one knew, because of her rep. She sat across the room on a sofa to get "the big picture". You can't even see details of the hand that far away, from that angle. When something was rocky, she said, "Did you study it carefully at home?" (No you stupid witch, because I didn't know how to do it myself because you sit every week on your fat butt across the room and never help me.) But I did not know this is NOT what a good teacher does.

There was not one fingering ever written in my music. She never gave me explicit directions. One week she asked me if I knew what "facile" meant, then said my playing was facile. Translation, after figuring it out years later - I was playing fast, but there was not enough shaping, lines, structure, architecture. That was because I learned by listening to records of famous players and I could not fully figure it all out on my own.

I finally got a really good teacher at age 20. After that I knew what a good teacher was, not before.

But she made me a good teacher, because I spent the rest of my life learning how NOT to ruin other players by knowing nothing, not caring, and being incredibly arrogant.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818237 02/21/19 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
Fast forward 2.5 years and I’ve been through 3 teachers and haven’t learned very much.

Are you having weekly lessons?

Are you doing one-hour lessons?

How many lessons have you had, total?

I ask these questions because one of my adult students takes lessons every other week, for 30 minutes, and he misses MANY lessons throughout the year. If I'm lucky, I see him 15 times a year. I've taught him for more than three years going on four, and he's playing worse than my other beginners who started lessons less than a year ago.


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Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: AZNpiano] #2818258 02/21/19 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Are you having weekly lessons?

Are you doing one-hour lessons?

How many lessons have you had, total?

If the teaching ("teaching") is poor, then the less lessons, the better, the less frequently, the better, for less harm done. You teach carefully and well, so when your students come infrequently, they will do less well than if they avail themselves fully of your expertise and guidance. smile

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818291 02/21/19 08:07 AM
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bytheshore, Gary alluded to something that I stress for a reason (since I was that adult student quite some years ago) which I find ultra-important.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
They problem here, which is something that Keystring talks about, is that students don't know what to ask for until they are armed with information.


(Thx, Gary. smile ) It is an unfortunate fact that you cannot expect to just hook up with a teacher who will then guide you to learning what you need to know for playing an instrument, and the skills going with that. First, many people "teach" while a few teach. 2nd, you might get good teaching but your own preconceptions may get in the way. Meanwhile it is difficult to judge, without information - three teachers in 2.5 years is not that unusual; nor is being mistaught by one teacher for 5 years and having to relearn and undo from scratch. So info - my opinions. wink
Originally Posted by bytheshore
I need to learn to play first.

That is a good start.

If you say "I want to learn R&B and jazz", you are likely to get someone who will literally teach you one R&B/jazz piece after the other in the copy-me-for-instant-results that you have been encountering. "What do I need to learn in order to play R&B and jazz" may elicit a different kind of answer - and the teacher who says "Dunno. huh?" is the teacher you don't want. If you have this question in your mind, then as a prospective teacher sells his wares, you'll also be listening for this.

Be aware that a lot of good teachers get burned, because when they do give the real deal, the student drops out because it's too much work or not instant enough. We all become the walking wounded cautiously testing each other out after a few bad experiences. frown

Originally Posted by bytheshore
I think what I’d like is a person who could teach me in a “project” way, like I’m doing by myself. For example, I’d like to pick a song that I like, talk about when & why it was written (briefly), what the style is, why the arrangement and key was chosen, and then thoroughly learn it. And learn why those particular chords work together, why these notes work with those chords, etc. Then, for the next song, learn something a little similar (e.g., same key or composer) but with new and/or different elements added.


I have mixed feelings about this. Things such as "when/why written, style, reason for key etc." are things you can do on your own, and should do. What bothers me is that the format is too student-directed, and does not give the teacher room to truly teach. I'll try to explain.

A decent teacher will want to give you the skills and knowledge you will need, and build these in steps (though not necessarily rigidly lock-step). He may have a couple of important skills or concepts in mind, and knows that Pieces X, Y & Z are excellent for imparting these concepts. He may have worked with and taught these pieces, so he knows exactly what to bring out; what the typical hurdles are for students etc. If you are the one imposing the choice of pieces according to your tastes, you will impede this kind of teaching. Your choices may also have obstacles you are not aware of. The lesser kind of teacher that you seem to have had would be fine with that - but you want to actually get teaching.

For other things like why an arrangement or key were chosen, there may be some basic underlying things you need to be given first, to draw on. Certainly I think if a teacher knows you are actually interested in such things, he may volunteer such things while teaching. But give the teacher room to teach. smile

Those are some off-the-cuff thoughts on a snowy morning.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818292 02/21/19 08:14 AM
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more loosely - on-line teaching etc.

Someone has already suggested a place to explore having to do with non-classical. They will know more than I do.

Some on-line teachers give some samples of what they teach on places like Youtube, to get a feel for what they are about. For my other instrument I've gone to some platforms, where you pay an annual or semester fee for access to their library of pre-recorded lessons and material which is organized, and some access to the teacher for feedback. In one platform, when students study lesson 5a, they can submit a video of themselves playing lesson 5a and it all goes into the 5a section, where you can see all fellow-students' attempts, along with the teacher's video feedback - I've learned a fair bit that way. This is not as good as one-on-one with a regular teacher but one can learn a fair deal.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818314 02/21/19 10:13 AM
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Thanks to all for the ideas and feedback. Some answers to your questions:

The lessons were weekly or bi-weekly (every 2 weeks), ranging from 30 to 60 minutes. I liked 45 minutes the best, every two weeks, as the real learning took place during practice. That particular teacher gave me a lot to do every lesson, at least I think it was a lot; about 30 minutes of drills, then whatever time I had left over for 1 or 2 songs. Since I usually practice for about 45 minutes, I never really learned the songs very well.

All the teachers performed at some level. Two were local keyboardists in bands, one was a performing professional in a large metro area.

My first teacher never sat at the piano and would only show me stuff if I asked. The 2nd did sit at the piano. The 3rd never did, in fact, through about 4 months of lessons I never saw his. On the rare occasion when he'd "show" me how to play something, he'd walk off camera and play it in some other part of the room. So based on these lessons - my only piano experience - it seems that they didn't want to show me too much, rather they'd want to watch me play? I always wished they show me more. I’m still not sure what an ideal teacher should do. I’d always imagined that the teacher would show me some technique, then ask me to try it, then correct me and show it again, and back and forth. But none did. As a couple of you noted, a beginner doesn’t know what to look for and just assumes that what the first teacher does is the right way.

I agree with the "not instant enough" comment. Two of my three teachers clearly were in this camp. They each gave me very simple songs in the beginning with 4-5 chords, and after the first week or two they’d say, “See, you've learned your first song!" I get that they may be pressured to "show progress" especially to parents of kids, but that's completely opposite of what I want. I really want to learn to play, not just be able to “prove” I can play by knowing some simple pieces.

Based on your comments, I think I’ll spend more time looking at teachers' videos and really talk to some possible ones to discuss the things I have in this forum. I have gained valuable experience in having the 3 teachers and now have a much better idea of what to look for.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818324 02/21/19 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
Thanks to all for the ideas and feedback. Some answers to your questions:

The lessons were weekly or bi-weekly (every 2 weeks), ranging from 30 to 60 minutes. I liked 45 minutes the best, every two weeks, as the real learning took place during practice. That particular teacher gave me a lot to do every lesson, at least I think it was a lot; about 30 minutes of drills, then whatever time I had left over for 1 or 2 songs. Since I usually practice for about 45 minutes, I never really learned the songs very well.

All the teachers performed at some level. Two were local keyboardists in bands, one was a performing professional in a large metro area.

My first teacher never sat at the piano and would only show me stuff if I asked. The 2nd did sit at the piano. The 3rd never did, in fact, through about 4 months of lessons I never saw his. On the rare occasion when he'd "show" me how to play something, he'd walk off camera and play it in some other part of the room. So based on these lessons - my only piano experience - it seems that they didn't want to show me too much, rather they'd want to watch me play? I always wished they show me more. I’m still not sure what an ideal teacher should do. I’d always imagined that the teacher would show me some technique, then ask me to try it, then correct me and show it again, and back and forth. But none did. As a couple of you noted, a beginner doesn’t know what to look for and just assumes that what the first teacher does is the right way.

I agree with the "not instant enough" comment. Two of my three teachers clearly were in this camp. They each gave me very simple songs in the beginning with 4-5 chords, and after the first week or two they’d say, “See, you've learned your first song!" I get that they may be pressured to "show progress" especially to parents of kids, but that's completely opposite of what I want. I really want to learn to play, not just be able to “prove” I can play by knowing some simple pieces.

Based on your comments, I think I’ll spend more time looking at teachers' videos and really talk to some possible ones to discuss the things I have in this forum. I have gained valuable experience in having the 3 teachers and now have a much better idea of what to look for.

One point. Lessons every other week is lousy for a good teacher. Adults think they are more organized and process things better, so it's fine to come every other week. It's a trap, because in two weeks time they can get very good at doing things wrong. I absolutely refuse to teach that way. For me it just does not work. There are plenty of things to do every lesson, and I wish I could see my good students at least twice a week.

Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: bythecshore] #2818351 02/21/19 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bythecshore
[....]song!" I get that they may be pressured to "show progress" especially to parents of kids, but that's completely opposite of what I want. I really want to learn to play, not just be able to “prove” I can play by knowing some simple pieces.
But you do need to start with simple pieces. If you want to be able to play (based on the commonly understood meaning of 'play'), you need to start with simple pieces and work upward from there. It takes time (longer than months) and there's no shortcut around that.

Quote
[...]For the past two months I’ve been teaching myself, working on just one song, which I pretty much have down. I’ve enjoyed it because I’ve been able to really learn each section, not have to practice 2 or 3 other things and worry that I’ll be ready for the lesson. I’ve done the chord inversions myself which has helped me understand how chords work and resemble each other.

Despite liking practicing by myself, I really would like to find a good teacher. I think what I’d like is a person who could teach me in a “project” way, like I’m doing by myself. For example, I’d like to pick a song that I like, talk about when & why it was written (briefly), what the style is, why the arrangement and key was chosen, and then thoroughly learn it. And learn why those particular chords work together, why these notes work with those chords, etc. Then, for the next song, learn something a little similar (e.g., same key or composer) but with new and/or different elements added.
It seems to me that you have a bit of a mis-match between your level of playing (rank beginner) and the depth of theory and historical information you desire for a piece.

I think what you really want (and need) is (a) a teacher who will teach you the skills and techniques need to play music on the piano and (b) someone who will teach you (a person or a class) devoted to learning theory in some depth. If you want to compose (which you've said you do want to do), then you likely need more than most teachers can reasonably fit into a 45 min or hour lesson. A good teacher will be including appropriate level theory as the student moves along, but it sounds as though you want a deeper dive.

Last edited by Stubbie; 02/21/19 12:17 PM.

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Re: Why can’t I find a teacher who is good for me? [Re: keystring] #2818379 02/21/19 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
If the teaching ("teaching") is poor, then the less lessons, the better, the less frequently, the better, for less harm done. You teach carefully and well, so when your students come infrequently, they will do less well than if they avail themselves fully of your expertise and guidance. smile

Yes, that is correct. I just wanted to find out the mindset and the expectations of progress that the OP has.

My adult student who is making such horrid progress actually practices between lessons, but he pushes way too much and tries to get ahead, thinking it will save him money. Unfortunately, he practices incorrectly, so each time I see him, it's one deprogramming activity after another. I'm sick of it.

I see the OP has a similar line of thinking.


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