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Sostenuto #2817975
02/20/19 02:14 PM
02/20/19 02:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,054
M
Moo :) Offline OP
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In Brhams intermezzo twice its written 'sostenuto' .



legato espress e. sostenuto.
espress e sostenuso

Is this an instruction for sostenuto pedal ? I've been told this is only on grand piano so what do you do if you dont have this pedal ?

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Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2817987
02/20/19 02:42 PM
02/20/19 02:42 PM
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Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Interesting -- it could be. This opus number would date from the early 1890's, when Steinway had sostenuto patented and in production for a few years.


-- J.S.

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Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2817994
02/20/19 02:47 PM
02/20/19 02:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Is this an instruction for sostenuto pedal ? I've been told this is only on grand piano so what do you do if you dont have this pedal ?

Look at #14 here. It looks like you can do without the pedal.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818009
02/20/19 03:07 PM
02/20/19 03:07 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Ok. I was going to play it on a grand piano next month so wanted to know opinions. I'm not really clear no how it works so might have to leave it out. Would be interesting to know opinions. I didnt really understand you link Tyrone. Thanks.

Last edited by Moo :); 02/20/19 03:08 PM.
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818013
02/20/19 03:12 PM
02/20/19 03:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ok. I was going to play it on a grand piano next month so wanted to know opinions. I'm not really clear no how it works so might have to leave it out. Would be interesting to know opinions. I didnt really understand you link Tyrone. Thanks.

Not sure you read far enough in #14. The link says, "The sostenuto marking encourages the pianist to linger for a moment to highlight the arrival of A major." Doesn't mention a pedal. So I think you are supposed to be "lingering" there.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818024
02/20/19 03:31 PM
02/20/19 03:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,054
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Moo :)  Offline OP
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You have the wrong piece tyrone. I'm asking about Intermezzo op 117 no 2. You have a link of op 119.

Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818025
02/20/19 03:33 PM
02/20/19 03:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,140
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
You have the wrong piece tyrone. I'm asking about Intermezzo op 117 no 2. You have a link of op 119.

OK, but if the composer put the sostenuto markings in himself, why would they have a different meaning in each of these two pieces? I think in 117, the sostenuto markings are probably also meant by the composer for you to linger.

Here is a research paper on this piece and in the last two sentences of the 1st paragraph of page 35, it lumps a number of these pieces together and says about them: "Another tempo-related term is sostenuto, suggesting a slower tempo throughout its duration as in Op. 118/3, bars 71-78, followed by poco a poco in tempo. This must be different from ritardando, as the term sost is followed by a rit. in 117/2, bars 26-30."

BTW, I found some performance suggestions for 117/2 here, which might interest you.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818026
02/20/19 03:36 PM
02/20/19 03:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,752
Dublin
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It's not a pedal marking. It just means sustained. What Brahms meant by this is open to interpretation.

Re: Sostenuto [Re: johnstaf] #2818028
02/20/19 03:37 PM
02/20/19 03:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Moo :)  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
It's not a pedal marking. It just means sustained. What Brahms meant by this is open to interpretation.


Thanks

Re: Sostenuto [Re: johnstaf] #2818044
02/20/19 04:16 PM
02/20/19 04:16 PM
Joined: May 2001
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
It's not a pedal marking. It just means sustained. What Brahms meant by this is open to interpretation.


Yes, it's definitely not a pedal marking; it's an interpretive direction: sustain the melody, linger on it, by slightly slowing down the tempo. There would be no note(s) that could be isolated and held with the sostenuto pedal in this particular measure.

If it were the sostenuto pedal, the marking would undoubtedly be underneath the bass clef as are the damper pedal markings.
Moreover, although (from what I have read) it was American Steinway that introduced the sostenuto pedal in the 1870s (?); it was not common on European pianos until well into the 20th century.
I will go out on a limb and say that I doubt that Brahms had a sostenuto pedal on his piano(s).

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Sostenuto [Re: BruceD] #2818046
02/20/19 04:22 PM
02/20/19 04:22 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Yes, it's definitely not a pedal marking; it's an interpretive direction: sustain the melody, linger on it, by slightly slowing down the tempo. There would be no note(s) that could be isolated and held with the sostenuto pedal in this particular measure.

The link I pointed above even points out that sost. differs from rit. in 117/2 in particular:
Quote
Another tempo-related term is sostenuto, suggesting a slower tempo throughout its duration as in Op. 118/3, bars 71-78, followed by poco a poco in tempo. This must be different from ritardando, as the term sost is followed by a rit. in 117/2, bars 26-30.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818054
02/20/19 04:39 PM
02/20/19 04:39 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,676
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Correction!

The sostenuto pedal was originally invented by Boisselot of Marseille in 1844. That invention was adapted and adopted by Claude Montal, and used in his pianos through 1865. The principle was reinvented in the United States by Hanchett. His invention seems to have been stolen by Steinway. Subsequent patent disputes were rendered moot by the discovery of Montal's previous (supposed) invention.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818059
02/20/19 04:43 PM
02/20/19 04:43 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Thanks again Bruce.

How have you learnt so much ? You're like a musical textbook !

Re: Sostenuto [Re: Moo :)] #2818101
02/20/19 06:07 PM
02/20/19 06:07 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,676
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thanks again Bruce.

How have you learnt so much ? You're like a musical textbook !


Maybe it's because I'm old? Nah! I just know where to look! smile

(Some) old people are like (some) teenagers: they think they know everything, when, really, they don't!

But thanks for the compliment!

Cheers!


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Sostenuto [Re: BruceD] #2818162
02/20/19 09:50 PM
02/20/19 09:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,410
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thanks again Bruce.

How have you learnt so much ? You're like a musical textbook !


Maybe it's because I'm old? Nah! I just know where to look! smile

(Some) old people are like (some) teenagers: they think they know everything, when, really, they don't!

But thanks for the compliment!

Cheers!


thumb


[Linked Image]
Re: Sostenuto [Re: BruceD] #2818460
02/21/19 05:10 PM
02/21/19 05:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Correction!

The sostenuto pedal was originally invented by Boisselot of Marseille in 1844. That invention was adapted and adopted by Claude Montal, and used in his pianos through 1865. The principle was reinvented in the United States by Hanchett. His invention seems to have been stolen by Steinway. Subsequent patent disputes were rendered moot by the discovery of Montal's previous (supposed) invention.

Regards,


The Steinway patent was 1874, and they were including sostenuto on their entire line by the late 1870's. By the early 1890's there may have been a sufficient installed base for composers to consider calling for it. The earlier makers didn't produce enough pianos for that.

That being said, Brahms in his later years doesn't strike me as being the bleeding edge early adopter type -- not like Debussy or Ravel....


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
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Re: Sostenuto [Re: JohnSprung] #2818531
02/21/19 07:23 PM
02/21/19 07:23 PM
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
[...] Brahms in his later years doesn't strike me as being the bleeding edge early adopter type -- not like Debussy or Ravel....


... and even Debussy didn't have a piano with a sostenuto, although we occasionally use it in playing his music.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Sostenuto [Re: BruceD] #2818535
02/21/19 07:37 PM
02/21/19 07:37 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,674
Florida
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
[...] Brahms in his later years doesn't strike me as being the bleeding edge early adopter type -- not like Debussy or Ravel....


... and even Debussy didn't have a piano with a sostenuto, although we occasionally use it in playing his music.

Regards,


Yes there’s a passage in La Fille... that my teacher had me use the sustenudo pedal - M24-27. It’s marked ‘sans lourdeur’.


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