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Why I regret selling my VPC1 #2817271 02/19/19 09:06 AM
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Since the problem with the neighbour downstairs started to get very severe, I've become obsessed with seeking for the perfect digital action.
I've looked for something that replicates the acoustic feel and touch, flawlessly.
I just wanted to be able to play piano whenever I feel like, 24\7, with no neighbor complains. Also wanted some privacy and intimacy when I play piano, because I always was embarrassed by the compliments of the nice ladies in my building(they happen to like some light classical music, and some pop - stuff like Celine Dion and and Mariah Carey, but they are certainly no musical authority...).

So I bought the Kawai VPC1, and then immediately lookout for the next upgrade - A Grand Feel Kawai DP - the top of the line of the digital piano industry, in respect of acoustic piano realism.

But the worst decision I could have done, is to sell my VPC1 for ridiculous price, in order to save some space in my home, while my MP11SE is delivered to me on a ship from Japan.
After having the VPC1 for 13 month, and the MP11SE for 8 month or so, I have to say that VPC1 vs MP11SE is much more than RM3 Grand II vs Grand Feel.

The MP11SE is an amazing stand alone unit - currently it has the best action available in a slab DP, it also has a fantastic sound engine.
This is the perfect unit for long trips abroad and as a backup for any case.

The VPC1 however, is the perfect match for VST pianos. My favorite software piano is Pianoteq. since Pianoteq 6 was released, YC5 became my favorite Pianoteq instrument, and I'd say my favorite digital piano sound I ever came across.

I miss the VPC1 so much, just to get this perfect integration with Pianoteq again.

About the pivot complains I had regarding the VPC1, I have to say I'm pretty sure they are not relevant to the majority of the population, since I have exceptionally large body structure, therefore exceptionally large hands, therefore whenever I put my thumb on a black key my other fingers already near the back of the keys.
Here two pictures that illustrate that:
https://ibb.co/WpBWBpC
https://ibb.co/WFzTxc1

So if you are a guy with a moderate body structure, or just a gentle woman, I'm doubt you will ever notice a significant difference between the two actions. I too didn't had real issues with the VPC1, except for the times I insisted to be obsessed with a very very specific repertoire.

I've been thinking about it seriously for the past few days, and I decided I'm going in the direction of getting the VPC1 again, and of course keeping my MP11SE.

I talked this morning with a townley musical instruments dealer, who is also an old friend, and he will try to bring me a VPC1 for a fair price, hopefully he will succeed at some point.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/20/19 07:37 AM. Reason: Update Title
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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817276 02/19/19 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hag01
So I bought the Kawai VPC1, and then immediately lookout for the next upgrade - A Grand Feel Kawai DP - the top of the line of the digital piano industry, in respect of acoustic piano realism.

That's the reason why look for an impressive piano (tone, features, looks) and then get used to its action.

Otherwise you end up in an endless quest for "realism", where you cycle through VSTs or MIDI controllers.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817301 02/19/19 09:59 AM
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The pivot issue isn't about the size of your hands. I would say from your picture that my hands are like yours. When you play D A F# in the LH, look at your finger position on the A. How could you play this A comfortably? For someone with smaller hands, this problem would become apparent with different chords.

I have a Kawai MP10 (with a similar but not identical action to the VPC1), and also a Roland FP90. The MP10 made some pieces really difficult to play.

Last edited by johnstaf; 02/19/19 10:03 AM.
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817308 02/19/19 10:10 AM
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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hag01, what makes your MP11SE's integration with Pianoteq less perfect?

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817315 02/19/19 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hag01
therefore whenever I put my thumb on a black key my other fingers already near the back of the keys.
Here two pictures that illustrate that:
https://ibb.co/WpBWBpC
https://ibb.co/WFzTxc1

Your wrist looks rather uncomfortably twisted. The middle finger is really angled vis-a-vis the forearm.

Maybe you visualise aligning the forearm, wrist, hand, fingers more. Try to move your left elbow tighter to your body making the forearm more parallel with the keys? You might need to lean your body back a bit and/or to the right. That might give you some room to move the entire hand back from the piano as your 5th finger is not close to falling off the key.

More experienced players will have better advice for you but these tips helped me.

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817350 02/19/19 11:27 AM
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Hag, I'd try to get the moderators to moderate your title. Seems a little misleading . . . .


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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817401 02/19/19 12:34 PM
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What is the actual difference in size between the RM3 and the Grand Feel keys? Is the size of the visible part of the key that different?

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: arc7urus] #2817405 02/19/19 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Is the size of the visible part of the key that different?

The playable part of the keys is exactly the same size.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817474 02/19/19 02:31 PM
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velocity curve?

Here is a velocity curve that was provided to me by a VPC user. In the VPC curve presets there was one for MP11. Here it is, supposedly from the VPC editor for the MP11:
Velocity = [0, 3, 7, 12, 17, 23, 30, 36, 43, 49, 56, 63, 72, 79, 85, 93, 99, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 123, 127; 0, 6, 10, 13, 17, 21, 25, 30, 36, 41, 47, 54, 62, 69, 75, 82, 90, 96, 102, 107, 110, 112, 113, 114]

Try it, see if it works for you. It is an interesting curve but may help provide a different approach to finding one that is appropriate for you.

Oh, and I should mention that it was specific to Pianoteq.

Last edited by scorpio; 02/19/19 02:32 PM.

Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq / Garritan CFX

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. -Willy Wonka


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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: arc7urus] #2817481 02/19/19 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
What is the actual difference in size between the RM3 and the Grand Feel keys? Is the size of the visible part of the key that different?


I think hag01 is talking about how the shorter pivot of the VPC1 affects (or doesn't affect) the ease of playing "into the keys."


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: scorpio] #2817508 02/19/19 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio
velocity curve?

Here is a velocity curve that was provided to me by a VPC user. In the VPC curve presets there was one for MP11. Here it is, supposedly from the VPC editor for the MP11:
Velocity = [0, 3, 7, 12, 17, 23, 30, 36, 43, 49, 56, 63, 72, 79, 85, 93, 99, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 123, 127; 0, 6, 10, 13, 17, 21, 25, 30, 36, 41, 47, 54, 62, 69, 75, 82, 90, 96, 102, 107, 110, 112, 113, 114]

Try it, see if it works for you. It is an interesting curve but may help provide a different approach to finding one that is appropriate for you.

Oh, and I should mention that it was specific to Pianoteq.


I respectfully fail to see the attractions of different velocity curves, as shown here and on the pianoteq forum, in intimate detail. Surely the description "convex", "concave", combined with starting and finishing points would adequately demonstrate the general advantage? The recipient would fine tune it himself to suit his headphones/loudspeakers.
The velocity curve can dramatically improve the tone and feel of any digital piano.


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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: peterws] #2817509 02/19/19 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
The velocity curve can dramatically improve the tone and feel of any digital piano.

That is the point.


Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq / Garritan CFX

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. -Willy Wonka


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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2817510 02/19/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
hag01, what makes your MP11SE's integration with Pianoteq less perfect?

He's probably referring to the VPC-1s built in touch curve that is optimized for Pianoteq.

For all intents and purposes, once you punt in the same curve into the MP-11SE, they should feel the same, while the longer pivots make playing at the back end of the keys slightly easier.

If he really wanted the perfect realism in action, I wonder why he didn't opt for an Avant Grand or a Novus instead of gunning for the MP11SE.

From the VPC or any GF action, there is only the step up to a real grand action remaining.


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VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: peterws] #2817511 02/19/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws

I respectfully fail to see the attractions of different velocity curves, as shown here and on the pianoteq forum, in intimate detail. Surely the description "convex", "concave", combined with starting and finishing points would adequately demonstrate the general advantage? The recipient would fine tune it himself to suit his headphones/loudspeakers.
The velocity curve can dramatically improve the tone and feel of any digital piano.


There's a lot of baggage and nuance there, Peter smile

In addition to just just customizing for player preference, I believe the velocity curve editor for the VPC-1 can be used to ensure that the controller outputs a full range of 0-127 values at playable levels, which I'm told is important for a MIDI controller. If you can get 1-127 in hardware, then you can clearly use that against the in-VST velocity curve editor to ensure the virtual instrument can take advantage of it. Without the hardware editor, many digital pianos output a playable range from 30-120, or maybe 2-105, so the idea is that you're leaving "useful velocities on the table" and reducing the resolution of your input, which may be very important for some types of MIDI input.

Does it make a playable/audible difference for piano if you have 85 velocities versus 128? That's something for better hands and ears than mine to opine on smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: Gombessa] #2817517 02/19/19 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by peterws

I respectfully fail to see the attractions of different velocity curves, as shown here and on the pianoteq forum, in intimate detail. Surely the description "convex", "concave", combined with starting and finishing points would adequately demonstrate the general advantage? The recipient would fine tune it himself to suit his headphones/loudspeakers.
The velocity curve can dramatically improve the tone and feel of any digital piano.


There's a lot of baggage and nuance there, Peter smile

In addition to just just customizing for player preference, I believe the velocity curve editor for the VPC-1 can be used to ensure that the controller outputs a full range of 0-127 values at playable levels, which I'm told is important for a MIDI controller. If you can get 1-127 in hardware, then you can clearly use that against the in-VST velocity curve editor to ensure the virtual instrument can take advantage of it. Without the hardware editor, many digital pianos output a playable range from 30-120, or maybe 2-105, so the idea is that you're leaving "useful velocities on the table" and reducing the resolution of your input, which may be very important for some types of MIDI input.

Does it make a playable/audible difference for piano if you have 85 velocities versus 128? That's something for better hands and ears than mine to opine on smile

couldn't been said better.

Of course it is a matter of self preference...

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817531 02/19/19 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hag01
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by peterws

I respectfully fail to see the attractions of different velocity curves, as shown here and on the pianoteq forum, in intimate detail. Surely the description "convex", "concave", combined with starting and finishing points would adequately demonstrate the general advantage? The recipient would fine tune it himself to suit his headphones/loudspeakers.
The velocity curve can dramatically improve the tone and feel of any digital piano.


There's a lot of baggage and nuance there, Peter smile

In addition to just just customizing for player preference, I believe the velocity curve editor for the VPC-1 can be used to ensure that the controller outputs a full range of 0-127 values at playable levels, which I'm told is important for a MIDI controller. If you can get 1-127 in hardware, then you can clearly use that against the in-VST velocity curve editor to ensure the virtual instrument can take advantage of it. Without the hardware editor, many digital pianos output a playable range from 30-120, or maybe 2-105, so the idea is that you're leaving "useful velocities on the table" and reducing the resolution of your input, which may be very important for some types of MIDI input.

Does it make a playable/audible difference for piano if you have 85 velocities versus 128? That's something for better hands and ears than mine to opine on smile

couldn't been said better.

Of course it is a matter of self preference...


Hmmm . . . I should've mentioned Pianoteq, which I use, has a handy vel curve, so I can see in an instant if my ptano is getting up there, I alter the curve to reflect that; starting a short way up the vertical eliminates a load of virtually unusable very low volume stuff and enables an easier control of what's left. Same with the top end of the curve; it may reach 127 before the max force is applied.
My FP50 seems very good concerning this; for the most part, a straight line suffices but it's usually displaced somewhat to the left which'll give me less than 127 gradations, but still incorporate the full Pianoteq range. Gives a great response, and a brighter, more acoustic sound. Imo . . . .


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Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: hag01] #2817550 02/19/19 04:54 PM
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As far as I know, there is no way to input a predefined custom velocity curve into MP11.
All what is there is an automatic function, it's like "play something and we'll design a velocity curve for you", but I never used it. I don't understand how it works and I don't understand what I should play and how. Should I play something with maximum dynamic range?

Any ideas how this function works?

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: Granyala] #2817569 02/19/19 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
hag01, what makes your MP11SE's integration with Pianoteq less perfect?

He's probably referring to the VPC-1s built in touch curve that is optimized for Pianoteq.

For all intents and purposes, once you punt in the same curve into the MP-11SE, they should feel the same, while the longer pivots make playing at the back end of the keys slightly easier.

If he really wanted the perfect realism in action, I wonder why he didn't opt for an Avant Grand or a Novus instead of gunning for the MP11SE.

From the VPC or any GF action, there is only the step up to a real grand action remaining.


Because I don't have money nor space for something like Avant Grand or Novus.

My main consideration to sell the VPC1 for ridiculous price was actually space saving, in my humble apartment(urban apartment building) - the other path would have been to invest at least 300-400$ and pay someone to build for me a decent flight case for the VPC1(assuming I'll find someone that does it in my area, if not I have to pay another 300$ for shipping).

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: peterws] #2817624 02/19/19 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Hag, I'd try to get the moderators to moderate your title. Seems a little misleading . . . .


Excuse me, I hope there is no missunderstanding.

Re: A bad decision I regret for - My path with Kawai DPs [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2817638 02/19/19 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
As far as I know, there is no way to input a predefined custom velocity curve into MP11.
All what is there is an automatic function, it's like "play something and we'll design a velocity curve for you", but I never used it. I don't understand how it works and I don't understand what I should play and how. Should I play something with maximum dynamic range?

Any ideas how this function works?

Don't waste time with that function because it does not work. I do not understand why Kawai has decided not to include a basic velocity curve editor similar to existing EQ curve editor.

Anyway, I am not sure if this curve editor will work on the MP11. It works on the CAx7 models. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2627157/Custom_touch_curve_on_Kawai_CA.html

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