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Time signature query #2817036
02/18/19 06:25 PM
02/18/19 06:25 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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I having being playing Schumann Impromptu 3 and got about half way through.

I had a query - the time signature has two C with lines through and not numbers.

I've never seen this before, can someone explain what this means ?



Thanks,

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Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817039
02/18/19 06:29 PM
02/18/19 06:29 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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across the stone, deathless piano performances

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Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817043
02/18/19 06:40 PM
02/18/19 06:40 PM
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Common time, often represented as "C" implies four quarter-notes per measure. Double Common Time, CC implies eight quarter-notes per measure.

Cut Common time, a C with a vertical slash through it, represents four quarter-notes per measure, but counted with only two beats per measure. Thus double-cut common time, means 8 quarters per measure, but counted as only four beats per measure. Another way of putting it is that it is the half note that is the counting unit, not the quarter-note. Counting eight beats (quarter-notes) per measure will interrupt the on-going flow that Schubert wanted for this; Counting four beats per measure (half-notes) will avoid extra beats and will improve the flow.

By the way, it's Schubert; not Schumann!

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817047
02/18/19 06:46 PM
02/18/19 06:46 PM
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Schubert - yes it is.

I'm not very good at american terms.

Can I check with you I understood.

C means 4 crotchets - 4/4 ?
CC means 8 crotchets - 8/4 ?

C means 4 quavers - 4/8 ?
CC means 4 minims - 4/2 ?

No sorry I didnt understand Bruce can you explain with terms - crotchet / quaver etc. terms - maybe I'll understand better. Thanks

Last edited by Moo :); 02/18/19 06:47 PM.
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817055
02/18/19 06:57 PM
02/18/19 06:57 PM
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Another example of cut time - indicated by a C with a vertical line through it - can be found in Prelude IX in Bk II of Bach's WTC. Here you will see that, in Bach's notation, "cut time" is the equivalent of 4/2 = four half-notes per measure. So even though the fugue subject begins with a whole-note followed by two half-notes, the unit of counting is the half-note, so there are still four beats to the measure, not eight.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Time signature query [Re: BruceD] #2817056
02/18/19 07:01 PM
02/18/19 07:01 PM
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Edit:

Originally Posted by BruceD
Common time, often represented as "C" implies four crotchets per measure. Double Common Time, CC implies eight crotchets per measure.

Cut Common time, a C with a vertical slash through it, represents four crotchets per measure, but counted with only two beats per measure. Thus double-cut common time, means eight crotchets per measure, but counted as only four beats per measure. Another way of putting it is that it is the minim that is the counting unit, not the crotchet. Counting eight beats (eight crotchets) per measure will interrupt the on-going flow that Schubert wanted for this; Counting four beats per measure (four minims) will avoid extra beats and will improve the flow.

By the way, it's Schubert; not Schumann!

Regards,


Regards,

Last edited by BruceD; 02/18/19 07:04 PM. Reason: Edited for British terminology

BruceD
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Re: Time signature query [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2817061
02/18/19 07:09 PM
02/18/19 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


Which is a much more concise way of putting it than I did! smile

Cheers!


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817063
02/18/19 07:11 PM
02/18/19 07:11 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Thanks again Bruce - you answer all my queries !

Can you check I understood ?

C = 4/4
CC = 8/4

C cut = again 4/4 but counted as minum - so 2/2 ?
CC cut = 8/4 but counted as mimum - so 4/2 ?


I'm also confused over the staccato marks over the minums in right hand in bar one, it is only over these and not the other minums. Semi-stacatto on minums ? A short gap between the two minum or is it really a staccato ? What do you think Schubert means ?

Thanks.

Last edited by Moo :); 02/18/19 07:12 PM.
Re: Time signature query [Re: BruceD] #2817065
02/18/19 07:16 PM
02/18/19 07:16 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Another example of cut time - indicated by a C with a vertical line through it - can be found in Prelude IX in Bk II of Bach's WTC. Here you will see that, in Bach's notation, "cut time" is the equivalent of 4/2 = four half-notes per measure. So even though the fugue subject begins with a whole-note followed by two half-notes, the unit of counting is the half-note, so there are still four beats to the measure, not eight.

Regards,


I looked it up, but prelude 9 book 2 says its in 3/4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTXbCWe8x0c

Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817067
02/18/19 07:19 PM
02/18/19 07:19 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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I see Bruce its the fugue.

But.

Its in 4/2 - and it seems to be C cut (not CC cut) so now I'm more confused frown

I thought C cut was 2/2 ?

Last edited by Moo :); 02/18/19 07:26 PM.
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817068
02/18/19 07:19 PM
02/18/19 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by BruceD
Another example of cut time - indicated by a C with a vertical line through it - can be found in Prelude IX in Bk II of Bach's WTC. Here you will see that, in Bach's notation, "cut time" is the equivalent of 4/2 = four half-notes per measure. So even though the fugue subject begins with a whole-note followed by two half-notes, the unit of counting is the half-note, so there are still four beats to the measure, not eight.

Regards,


I looked it up, but prelude 9 book 2 says its in 3/4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTXbCWe8x0c


My mistake, this time. I meant to say the Fugue IX of Book II, WTC.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817073
02/18/19 07:28 PM
02/18/19 07:28 PM
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The "C" with a vertical slash through it (cut time) is most often 2/2, is it not?

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Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817074
02/18/19 07:28 PM
02/18/19 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thanks again Bruce - you answer all my queries !

Can you check I understood ?

C = 4/4
CC = 8/4

C cut = again 4/4 but counted as minum - so 2/2 ?
CC cut = 8/4 but counted as mimum - so 4/2 ?


I'm also confused over the staccato marks over the minums in right hand in bar one, it is only over these and not the other minums. Semi-stacatto on minums ? A short gap between the two minum or is it really a staccato ? What do you think Schubert means ?

Thanks.


C cut = again 4/4 but counted as minum - so 2/2 ?
CC cut = 8/4 but counted as mimum - so 4/2 ?
Yes.

Schubert was known for not being consistent in the use of symbols. Ferguson in the ABRSM edition adds these staccato marks in square brackets each time this exact theme recurs. My (unprofessional) view of those staccato marks suggests a slight detachment of those minims but leading towards the semibreve of the next measure. It's logical in a sense, because you have to release the note before you can repeat it. In theory, at least, an absolute legato isn't possible because of the release before the repeat. I don't think you hear it in professional performances as a distinct staccato, however. Perhaps that was what Schubert was indicating.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817084
02/18/19 07:43 PM
02/18/19 07:43 PM
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Moo :) Offline OP
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Very interesting.

Thanks.

Re: Time signature query [Re: Moo :)] #2817143
02/18/19 11:43 PM
02/18/19 11:43 PM
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Posts: 137
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Detroit
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thanks again Bruce - you answer all my queries !

Can you check I understood ?

C = 4/4
CC = 8/4

C cut = again 4/4 but counted as minum - so 2/2 ?
CC cut = 8/4 but counted as mimum - so 4/2 ?


I'm also confused over the staccato marks over the minums in right hand in bar one, it is only over these and not the other minums. Semi-stacatto on minums ? A short gap between the two minum or is it really a staccato ? What do you think Schubert means ?

Thanks.

A dot underneath a slur means portamento, draw the key towards you. Feel free to let go and liberate you pinky so the rest of your hand can roll on the triplets with super-duper leisure.


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: Time signature query [Re: Fidel] #2817153
02/19/19 12:34 AM
02/19/19 12:34 AM
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Victoria, BC
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Originally Posted by Fidel
[...]A dot underneath a slur means portamento, draw the key towards you. Feel free to let go and liberate you pinky so the rest of your hand can roll on the triplets with super-duper leisure.


As Groves indicates: Do not confuse portamento with portato:

In music, portamento meaning "carriage" or "carrying") is a pitch sliding from one note to another. The term originated from the Italian expression "portamento della voce" ("carriage of the voice"), denoting from the beginning of the 17th century its use in vocal performances and emulation by members of the violin family and certain wind instruments, and is sometimes used interchangeably with anticipation.

Portato also mezzo-staccato,(in French: notes portées) in music denotes a smooth, pulsing articulation and is often notated by adding dots under slur markings.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190

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