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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: BruceD] #2823709
03/07/19 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by cmb13[...

I also have to take care to remember tiny details, like releasing the Bb in the first beat of M11, as there is a rest before playing it again on the 2nd beat, or similarly holding the D in M9 for only an eighth note. I sometimes get sloppy on these details, but will try to be really precise here.


It may help if you concentrate on treating the D in measure 9 and the B-flat in measure 11, each, as the last note of a phrase. That note needs to be "lifted off" lightly, as would a singer at the end of a phrase, taking a breath, and then beginning the next phrase. Have you concentrated on playing those phrases by themselves, listening to the phrasing you want to produce, without cluttering your thinking with the accompanying chords in measure 8, and the upper voice in measures 9 through 11?

Regards,


Sorry, Bruce, just caught this post today...no I haven't actually done this. Maybe I'll give it a try when I get home later today. Thanks for the tip!

I spent some time last night practicing, again, the grace note / chord combinations. I think I'm going to stick with L hand only on them. The three follow a pattern - that is a grace note followed by a three note chord, with the grace note repeated as the middle note of the chord. The intervals are all the same. For instance, G, followed by D-G-C, which goes to Bb. Is that a Gm11? If so, the pattern is

Gm11: G -> D-G-C --->Bb
C11: C -> G-C-F --> E
Bb11: B -> F-Bb-E --D

I'm working a quick lift of the grace note followed by a soft landing on the chord, played with 5-3-1. I'm then using 1 on the next note, except on the case with the Bb, where I use 2.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825394
03/11/19 12:36 PM
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Any updates?

Are you pedaling the final measures, or using just finger legato? I began practicing it with pedal, but find it to be a little muddy, possibly b/c the notes are so close together in tone. Maybe I'll try again tonight with only legato.


Steinway A3
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Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2825400
03/11/19 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Any updates?

Are you pedaling the final measures, or using just finger legato? I began practicing it with pedal, but find it to be a little muddy, possibly b/c the notes are so close together in tone. Maybe I'll try again tonight with only legato.


In measures 53 and 54, a touch of pedal on beats 2 and 4 for a little resonance and warmth and then finger legato only for the last two measures.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825413
03/11/19 01:12 PM
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Sounds good to me, Bruce, thanks!


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"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825582
03/11/19 07:21 PM
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Update here. Working on listening carefully to how my playing sounds, fiddling around with pedalling, phrasing, expression. It’s getting there but not satisfied yet with how it sounds. I am trying hard to follow my teacher’s advice of “Let the music speak” .



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: PianogrlNW] #2825601
03/11/19 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
[...]I am trying hard to follow my teacher’s advice of “Let the music speak” .


Shouldn't that be "sing"? smile

Cheers!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: BruceD] #2825603
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
[...]I am trying hard to follow my teacher’s advice of “Let the music speak” .


Shouldn't that be "sing"? smile

Cheers!


Haha. Sing makes perfect sense but she says “speak”. I think it refers to the same thing.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2825610
03/11/19 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Any updates?

Are you pedaling the final measures, or using just finger legato? I began practicing it with pedal, but find it to be a little muddy, possibly b/c the notes are so close together in tone. Maybe I'll try again tonight with only legato.


For the last two measures, my teacher recommended that I pedal carefully, releasing the pedal on the As in the penultimate measure and using the "belated" pedal (not sure about the English term) on all the B flats and on every note in the last measure (along with the finger legato), to avoid muddiness. But sometimes I just use mostly the finger legato in the last measure, although I like it better with the pedal.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825626
03/11/19 09:02 PM
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Ok, it's been a close call, but the number one favorite note is.....

That rolled Gm in the beginning of M11. I'm hitting the R hand G with the beginning of the roll. It's sooo beautiful!

Question for BruceD - you mentioned specifically the final D in M9 (of the phrase that began in M7-8). Now I've been pedaling that D with the D min chord below it, but wonder now if I should not pedal that D. This is tough - it requires hitting the D min chord and the D together, releasing the D on top before applying the pedal, to hold the chord without holding the D. Is that what you do?


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Working On
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"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2825654
03/11/19 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
[...]
Question for BruceD - you mentioned specifically the final D in M9 (of the phrase that began in M7-8). Now I've been pedaling that D with the D min chord below it, but wonder now if I should not pedal that D. This is tough - it requires hitting the D min chord and the D together, releasing the D on top before applying the pedal, to hold the chord without holding the D. Is that what you do?


I guess you caught me out on this; I actually cheat a bit on this by catching the chord and the right-hand D with the pedal. That said, the volume of the right-hand phrase has diminished to the point that the carry-over of the D with the pedal is not that noticeable. What is more important than trying to negotiate what can be a bit awkward (as you indicate) is the sense that the phrase in the right hand has quietly ended on the D, however slightly it may be carried over.

I don't think it's a great crime. We see in a fair amount of Romantic music (Chopin comes to mind) where the composer actually indicates pedaling through a rest, and if I do so I hope Tchaikovsky won't disown my interpretation for that!

But it's a good question; let's hear what others say.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825667
03/11/19 10:51 PM
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Beginning in M9 I transfer the melodic line from the D in the RH in the 1st beat to the F in LH 2nd beat until I reach M13. Does that make sense? I’m not sure, still experimenting. Not sure about calling it the melody but I am playing my LH louder than RH on those measures 9-12.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825758
03/12/19 06:59 AM
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M15: G-D-G is G, we can't tell if it's major or minor because it's lacking the third but the key signature implies minor. The C is a fourth so the chord is a suspended fourth and it resolves on the next beat to G Minor. It's not an eleventh unless there's a seventh in the chord.

M23: same thing applies so the chord is C sus4 resolving on the next beat to C Major and M24 is Bb sus4 to Bb Major.
_______________________________

The melody from M1-8 is repeats an octave lower in M9-13 with a harmony above it that I don't think is strong enough on its own to call a counter melody. I begin the melody in M9 over the dying wash of the last one, bringing out the first F (which doesn't break the D Minor harmony) and carrying that melody through.
_______________________________

I did 22-33 and 1-8 last week so this week will be my last in the learning phase of this piece. The coda is easy enough so I'll work on M17-33 as one unit and M34-56 as another then I might take a week away from it to let it assimilate.


Richard
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825799
03/12/19 09:15 AM
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Wouldn’t you think the Bb on the next beat in M15 makes it clear that’s a G min?

Great progress. I’ve completed the sections but need to make it more fluid. Maybe I will try a preliminary recording - I am starting to realize this has value in exposing weak spots.


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Debussy Clair De Lune

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: PianogrlNW] #2825836
03/12/19 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Beginning in M9 I transfer the melodic line from the D in the RH in the 1st beat to the F in LH 2nd beat until I reach M13. Does that make sense? I’m not sure, still experimenting. Not sure about calling it the melody but I am playing my LH louder than RH on those measures 9-12.


Yes, definitely. If you look closely at the score, you will see that the melody in the left hand in measures 9 through 12 is exactly the same - note for note, except an octave lower - as the melody in measures 1 through 4. It makes good sense, then, to bring out the melody in the left hand; the right hand being a sort of obligato line.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2825877
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Wouldn’t you think the Bb on the next beat in M15 makes it clear that’s a G min?
Beat 1 of M15 is a change of harmony from the previous measure and the last B the ear heard was a B natural. What comes on beat two is the resolution but the ear can't hear what hasn't come yet so on beat 1 it's still a mystery as to whether it's major or minor.


Richard
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2826019
03/12/19 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Beginning in M9 I transfer the melodic line from the D in the RH in the 1st beat to the F in LH 2nd beat until I reach M13. Does that make sense? I’m not sure, still experimenting. Not sure about calling it the melody but I am playing my LH louder than RH on those measures 9-12.


Originally Posted by BruceD

Yes, definitely. If you look closely at the score, you will see that the melody in the left hand in measures 9 through 12 is exactly the same - note for note, except an octave lower - as the melody in measures 1 through 4. It makes good sense, then, to bring out the melody in the left hand; the right hand being a sort of obligato line.
Regards,


Originally Posted by zrtf90
..........
The melody from M1-8 is repeats an octave lower in M9-13 with a harmony above it that I don't think is strong enough on its own to call a counter melody. I begin the melody in M9 over the dying wash of the last one, bringing out the first F (which doesn't break the D Minor harmony) and carrying that melody through.


Funny, I was practicing the piece right now, and stumbled on this issue. I actually stopped, loaded Khatia's video, and opened the thread to review this point. I began experimenting coincidentally with the same....emphasizing the L hand over the R here, but it's initially tough for me. I think a few minutes of repeated practice on this per day will help. Incidentally, I don't think she (Khatia) emphasizes this point. It's at around 40-50 sec in. Just listened to Lisitsa and Pletnev as well. Lisitsa may emphasize the L more than the others.


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Working On
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"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2826027
03/12/19 07:13 PM
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Addendum: I spent 10 min on M9-13, playing L hand alone, then adding R hand. Its coming along, but this is definitely new to me, bringing out the L hand and softening the R. Just as I’m working hard on the opposite on my Bach Adagio! Will put it aside for now and come back to this again.


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Working On
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"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2826053
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Yes, my teacher said that marcato refers to the melody in the left hand, although the voice in right hand should also be heard, obviously. She also reminded me to "sing" the melody in the left hand in M13-14--she said it's basically the "cello part" here.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: dumka1] #2826225
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Originally Posted by dumka1
Yes, my teacher said that marcato refers to the melody in the left hand, although the voice in right hand should also be heard, obviously. She also reminded me to "sing" the melody in the left hand in M13-14--she said it's basically the "cello part" here.


Thanks for confirming this issues. Great insight!


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2828007
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I have been recording myself the last couple of days and I feel like my biggest challenge is how to make this piece interesting to the listener. I feel like the way I play it sounds like it drags and it’s kind of dreary. And I am not using a particularly slow tempo. What do you think of making MM 17-21 sound playful? Any ideas out there, and have the others working on this recorded and evaluated their playing?



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