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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819162 02/23/19 09:30 AM
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Richard, your post was 25 min too late! I just finished my scale practice for the day...I do the major scale, 4 octaves, hands together, then each minor scale (N, H, M) in the parallel key., and the major and then minor arpeggio of each. I do this for all 12 keys, so it takes a while. However, after reading your post, I went back and repeated F#min (N,H,M) slowly and with minimal finger movement, as you so articulately expressed, and what a different feeling! I need to start practicing like this. I see the professionals seem to have less extraneous movement, or should I say an economy of motion, and I understand why it's important.

I've worked on M1-8 and M17-20....I've gotten the fingering of these sections down. The melody line in 18 is fairly clear, but now that I study it carefully, it's interesting that the as the melody rises, it travels upwards through the second voice which descends in the C, Bb, then A.

Similarly, the second voice descends from D, C#, Bb then A in M 20, as the melody rises through it. To make things even more interesting, as if that were really necessary, the Bb's (and the D in M20) change roles as they are held form melody to second voice in each of these measures! How interesting!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819171 02/23/19 10:08 AM
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Ah, no, Craig! The Bb and A in M20 are the continuation of the five note figure preceding them.

The upper, primo, voice in M18 is the continuation of the voice from M17. In M18, M20 and M21 it has stems up. The Bb and A, stems down, belong to the five note figure underneath, the secondo. The stem directions separate out the voices when they're written on the same staff. Note how the main theme is also separated from the accompaniment in M9-15 or M22-24.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819192 02/23/19 10:58 AM
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Oh! I see what you mean, with the 2 lines demarcated but upwards or downwards stems!

However, I just went back and listened to a few professional versions (Ashkenazy, Lang Lang) on iTunes at this point (M17-20) and to my ear, I hear the line I described above over the other. Eg in M18, E-F-F#-G-G#-Bb-C-B-D-C, and in M20, E-D#-D-F-E-Bb-D-C-E-D. I hear the other notes as softer. That's why I was thinking that the primary voice / melody jumped from one line to the other. Possible? Let me know what you think about that.

Btw I really do plan on practicing my scales differently after your post earlier today.....it makes total sense, and now the I have the notes, I think it's time to focus on upping my game in terms of softness, finesse, and economy of motion.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819213 02/23/19 11:39 AM
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Chiming in here. In M 18, 20 and 21 I like to bring out the inner, alto voice..but.. that voice does not include the notes with the stems up. So in M 18 I bring out rest -E-F F#-G-G# Bb A. Ditto for the other 2 measures. The soprano voice (stems up) floats over it. But you should make your own musical choices. That’s what makes every interpretation a bit different.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819220 02/23/19 11:55 AM
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I wouldn't be as comfortable with that, Craig.

The four note figure, C-B-D-C, stands out for me as separate from the rising voice (though not necessarily from the previous measure). It is introduced in LH in the second half of M13 and continues into M15, comes in again in M18, 20, 21 (where it constitutes the climax itself), both halves of M22 and 23, M24 (first half), M25 (last half), is continued through M26-29, then both voices in M30 and 31, where the last two notes continue as the thematic material of M32 before the descent to the reprise.

Glad to know you'll be doing scales HS again. They're so much more important than HT once you've got the coordination thing sorted.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819223 02/23/19 11:59 AM
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Oh, hi, Ellen! smile I didn't see you there.

Yes, that's how I see it.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819302 02/23/19 05:52 PM
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I just spent about 10 min on M17-18. Richard, you’re right that separating the voices brings out each one and clarifies it. It seems that Ellen and Richard, you both have similar takes on the fact that one voice should be brought out, yet Richard, you bring out the upper voice, and Ellen the middle voice - correct?

I totally see now how the theme is in each voice, so crossing over from one to the other (middle to upper) doesn’t make sense. Yet that’s how Ashkenzi and Khatia seem to play it! I’ll keep listening and working on it.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819315 02/23/19 06:55 PM
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Both voices need to be brought out, that's why they're there. Only the accompaniment needs to be subdued. Ellen may want to bring out the alto as a separate voice while the soprano floats above it. I think the four note motif enters as an echo in M13 and M14 but during this B section it comes to dominate, takes the climax and pervades the rest of the section up the final descent in M32. I hear this with Khatia and Vladimir as well so it may well be a perception thing.

The voices may sound, to you, as one melodic line - especially if you're listening without a score in hand - but as you're about to embark on this journey as a pianist, it's relevant to notice that the second half of that melody was written, by Tchaikovsky, to be an independent voice. He makes it clearer by the D on beat one of M18 falling to C on beat two above the lower voice. That, for me, keeps them separate.

It may be that in playing the piece you can't separate the voices in sound, so they blend into one for the average listener, but it is pertinent to know that there are two voices there. As your technique grows it will become more relevant.

Have you tried playing the two voices in separate hands? Without the accompaniment they come apart much more clearly, like a Bach Invention. It may help to hear them that way.

ETA You might also play M13 and 14 but skip M15 and 16, going straight from M14 to M17. or even from M14 to M18.


Last edited by zrtf90; 02/23/19 07:03 PM.

Richard
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819875 02/25/19 01:13 PM
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Just checking in after a weekend of good practice. Slowly coming together. I really, really like this piece!

Btw it's definitely in the key of Dm, right? I only ask b/c it ends on F. Haven't gone through the chords to analyze yet. Starts on Dm, next in first measure is a mystery chord (D-A-C#-G-A). Love the Gm in M7, and really love the G#dim7 in the second half of M7.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819894 02/25/19 01:44 PM
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Ends on F? Eh...the last left hand chord is D-F-D, the RH takest two measures to settle on A, so D-F-A.

It's D Minor - right to the end.

The mystery chord in M1 is A11; major triad: A-C#-E, plus seventh, G, and 11th, D. It's inverted with D in the bass and sweeter, for me, in M4 where the mystery missing third (will it be major or minor?) falls on the next beat.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819900 02/25/19 01:53 PM
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That's odd...my edition has the last two measures trailing down to an F. I do have the DFD in M55, F in the R hand, alternating F-G-G-F-G-F-G-F then in M56, A to G to end on F. Regardless, I agree it's D min. Just struck me that the final note was F (at least in my version), and the DFD chord in M55 is not held until the end in my version (Henle).

Also, this might be a stupid question, but in M1, beat #3, I have no E until beat 4, but I guess that counts towards making the chord A (11) then? Just like in M4, I suppose. I'm still a little on the newer side .... if the 4th beat notes can count towards the chord on beat 3, I'm good with that.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819908 02/25/19 02:07 PM
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What's the clef in M53, Craig? smile

Yes, the E is missing in M1 - sorry. The third and mostly the fifth aren't necessary for extended chords, just the first, the seventh and the extended note.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2819915 02/25/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
What's the clef in M53, Craig? smile
.....


Sneaky, sneaky!!! I haven't actually played those measures yet, hope I would have caught that!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820051 02/25/19 07:12 PM
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How are you playing the L hand in M12 (and 13)?

Are you playing the A-C (and F-A in M13) with 4-5 or 3-5?
- 4-5 is awkward, but frees up 1-2-3 for the next few notes
- 3-5 is more comfortable but makes the next few notes trickier -
- they can be played 1-1-2-1-2 or
- by pedaling and letting off the C (or A in 14)

I’ve tried it all 3 ways but haven’t committed yet.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820079 02/25/19 08:43 PM
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I play the LH with 4-5. Do what is most comfortable for you.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820080 02/25/19 08:43 PM
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I have section A as 16 bars so I gather you mean M13 and 14.

I have 3-5 for the F-A, 1 and 2 for the F and E. I take the G in RH 2, and LH 1 for the F.
I do the same in M14, taking the E with RH 2 and the accacc in M15 with RH 3.
__________________________

I wanted to cover a couple of things from earlier.

Harmonic analysis is best done at the keyboard. If you actually play the chords you can often hear what you might miss on paper - such as the clef you're in (!) - or notes that are hanging on from a previous chord, bass movement and so on. You can also hear a chord change and just know what it's gone to by the sound - once you've developed your ear that much. Doing the same on paper isn't as practical and won't help your hearing.

Chopin, as an example, used simple expedience with chord spelling and makes the first few bars of his E Minor Prelude a bit of a jumble, but on hearing the chords a more appropriate spelling occurs for that sound.

The other thing is the harmony of extended chords - as you're still "on the newer side".

Western Harmony is built on thirds, notes stacked on the lines or the spaces of a stave. A triad is two stacked thirds.
A Major triad is a major third on the bottom, 1-3, and a minor third on top, 3-5. A Minor triad is a minor third on the bottom, 1-b3, and a major third on top, b3-5.

Two minor thirds result in a diminished chord and two major thirds result in an augmented chord.

The next third after a fifth is a seventh, a major seventh on I and IV, major third - minor third - major third, a minor seventh on ii, iii, and vi, minor third - major third - minor third. The chord on the dominant is unusual, neither a major seventh nor a minor seventh but a dominant seventh (because it only occurs on the dominant), major third - minor third - minor third.

Beyond the octave are the ninth, eleventh and thirteenth. When the seventh is present these are ninth, eleventh and thirteenth chords. In each case the fifth is likely to be dropped as might other extended notes. An eleventh might not have a ninth, for example.

When the seventh is not present they become added ninth, added eleventh or added thirteenth chords. If the third is not present the added ninth might be considered a suspended second and an added eleventh a suspended fourth but the distance from the fundamental note should really determine 2, 4 or 6 from 9, 11 and 13.

The time signature determines how many chords there might be in a measure. Later notes might reinforce or clarify a chord not fully spelled out on the beat. The second chord in M1 doesn't become A11 when the E sounds on beat 4. It's an A11 even though it doesn't have the fifth. It doesn't have the ninth either. It might even drop the third, though that might change the character of the chord, depending on what chord was sounding before it.



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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820085 02/25/19 09:21 PM
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Yes, I must have meant M13; funny, that's my eyes, it looked blurry and I thought it said 12 initially. I hadn't considered taking that G with the R hand. I think I'll stick with the L as I'm afraid I won't be able to voice it properly with the R as I'm making the ascending run simultaneously with 3-4-5.

All interesting! I have studies extended chords, but the above is a nice review and adds some detail that I did not know (eg the distinction between an eleventh and an added eleventh without the seventh, which I don't recall having previously made). This review is particularly helpful and relevant, though, as the fact that the notes that make up the chord can occur on the next beat is nice to know. Additionally, while I also understand that not all the notes are necessary, I admit that I didn't take this into account when trying to figure out which chord this is. I'll have to keep this in mind.

And yes, I was looking at the sheet while not in front of the piano, as I had some moments of free time at work. I've played the Chopin 28.4, but I'm definitely not tackling naming all those chords!

And Richard, why aren't you sleeping - isn't it around 2 am in Ireland!?


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820086 02/25/19 09:21 PM
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Ellen, have you recorded this one previously?


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2820087 02/25/19 09:22 PM
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And...do we have any others listening in? I'd love to hear of some others learning this with us!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2820102 02/25/19 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Ellen, have you recorded this one previously?


I just started playing it last week. I love it. The only other season I have played is June (Barcarolle).



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