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Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2710336
01/31/18 10:20 AM
01/31/18 10:20 AM
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Gabriel Hikaru Offline
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Originally Posted by Jay017
Can anyone with a Kawai CA67 piano confirm that the CFX default velocity curve combined with the default normal touch setting on the CA67 is not very good. The overall velocity is far to soft. Like if I press the bottom of a key within the CFX piano itself (to sound a 127 note) and try to replicate that by hitting the Kawai keyboard fortissimo its noticeably quieter. I haven't measured the velocity values within a DAW yet but I would think I'm not playing any notes over 100 velocity.


If you want to see what MIDI velocities your keyboard sends out, you can install Pianoteq's trial. Play a fortissimo in it, and it will show you what the velocity of that note is.

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Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2710483
01/31/18 07:52 PM
01/31/18 07:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,497
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
This thread may also be of interest:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2635499

The user 'marp' prepared a touch curve editor for the CA97/CA67.

Please note that neither Kawai nor I officially endorse this software, users do so at their own risk etc.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2815669
02/15/19 10:55 AM
02/15/19 10:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,157
Connecticut, USA
scorpio Offline
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Is there a way to specifically change, without dragging the mid- and end-points, the coordinates of the velocity curve?


Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq / Garritan CFX

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. -Willy Wonka


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Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: CyberGene] #2816012
02/16/19 12:01 AM
02/16/19 12:01 AM
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MooganDavid Offline
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Cybergene doesn't your edit actually shorten the sustain pedal window? They are smaller values not sure how that works. By the way I use them and it's definitely an improvement Thanks MooganDavid

Last edited by MooganDavid; 02/16/19 12:02 AM.
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816051
02/16/19 04:36 AM
02/16/19 04:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
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Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Celestis
Originally Posted by -Jay-
Can anyone with a Kawai CA67 piano confirm that the CFX default velocity curve combined with the default normal touch setting on the CA67 is not very good. The overall velocity is far to soft. Like if I press the bottom of a key within the CFX piano itself (to sound a 127 note) and try to replicate that by hitting the Kawai keyboard fortissimo its noticeably quieter. I haven't measured the velocity values within a DAW yet but I would think I'm not playing any notes over 100 velocity.

Borrowed the lite version from a friend to check it out and coming from Pianoteq, I've noticed that immediately.

Pianoteq with the VPC1's internal pianoteq curve gives me pretty nasty realism, to the point of fatiguing and annoying sound due to untrained hands, just like the acoustic grand of my teacher.

Garritan CFX lite sounds nice and smooth to matter how hard I hit the keys, I tried to get the harsh timbre you get when you press the top end of the software keys but I am afraid that's not possible w/o damaging my dear VPC1.

Using "light-2" is a little better but compared to Pianoteq it's still pretty darn unrealistic behavior, because now you get the "harsher" timbre even at lower levels.

VPC1 is sending out 120ish w/o problems, something is off on the software interpretation side.

Anybody made similar experiences and might be able to offer some insight?


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816083
02/16/19 09:49 AM
02/16/19 09:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
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Gombessa Offline
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You can use a midi monitor prog to see what your FFF velocities are on the CA. I wouldn't be surprised if they are closer to 100 than 127. You can also change the piano's touch curve to light or light+ to "enable" the higher velocities, and then adjust CFX's curve to correct the compression in the mid-range that occurs.

This is what I do with my my NV10, and my CFX curve looks a bit like it's exponentially increasing--it starts out fairly flat at low velocity and smoothly curves up to vertical at 127. It feels right because switching to on board speakers drops the touch curve back to "normal" and to my fingers and ears that sounds and feels about the same.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816206
02/16/19 03:28 PM
02/16/19 03:28 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 177
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kbrod1 Offline
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I have a Roland HP508 and purchased the full version of the CFX some time ago. I think the sound is wonderful and much better than what Roland offers. That said my only issue has been with it's overall volume. I have to turn the volume way way up on the piano to equal what level it would be without using this VST. Say level 100 with it would equal around 20 without. Am I missing something to tweek that adjusts this on the program?

Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: kbrod1] #2816254
02/16/19 05:08 PM
02/16/19 05:08 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by kbrod1
That said my only issue has been with it's overall volume. I have to turn the volume way way up on the piano to equal what level it would be without using this VST.


It's not you. CFX is notoriously low gain. You should turn it all the way to max if needed, and turn off the "limit" button in the master volume slider.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: Gombessa] #2816299
02/16/19 07:04 PM
02/16/19 07:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 27
Portland OR
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Jeff Hurchalla Offline
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Portland OR
I'd generally recommend to avoid turning up the volume sliders super high in the CFX interface. Also I'd generally recommend to leave the limit button on (it's on by default). You can usually get super high volume, if that's what you want, via the combination of your Windows/Mac sound mixer and upping the volume on your amplifier. Here's the steps in more detail:
1) Go to your operating system Sound settings and make sure the volume (or volumes) are set to 100%. I'm on Windows as I type so I can't give mac instructions, but for Windows usually the simplest thing is just to click the speaker icon on your taskbar, and set it to 100%. I'm not sure if that advice is consistent throughout Win7/8/10, but you should be able to figure out one way or another how to check that you indeed have your system's volume at 100% for Win7/8/10 and for Mac as well.
2) If you have the computer connected to speakers or an amp or to a headphone amp, turn up the volume on your speakers or amp or headphone amp. If you have your headphones plugged directly into your computer's headphone port, then that's not an option, so after step (1) and getting system volume to 100%, you'll indeed need to turn up the CFX interface sliders if you still want more volume.

The reason that you generally want to avoid setting volume super high in the CFX interface is that you may risk digital clipping distortion. As a simplified explanation of what I'm talking about, the digital signal output from the CFX goes to your D/A converter which will change the digital signal to an analog signal that you can listen to. But the converter only knows how to properly convert a digital signal that has values in the range of -1.0 to 1.0, and if it gets any signals that go higher than 1.0, it will clip the signal back at 1.0 (pretending it was really 1.0 when it wasn't) - the result is audible distortion. So keeping that in mind, if you set the volume sliders in the CFX interface super high, the instrument might produce a boosted output signal that goes higher than 1.0 (for example, imagine playing a FFF dynamic chord when all sliders are maxed). And that will result in distortion. If you instead have the CFX interface volumes set close to the levels that the piano presets normally come up with, there wouldn't be any clipping because the signal would (probably) never go above 1.0. The only downside is that the volume is of course lower. But you can fix that really really easily by turning up the volume on your amplifier, and no distortion!

Things get more involved if you are using the CFX as a plugin for a DAW, but I'd still give that same advice as above. The only difference is that you may be making a recording. In that case I'd still recommend keeping the CFX volume sliders around their default levels, but now we're not really concerned about the volume level of your speakers or headphones - we care about the volume of the CFX track in the DAW's mix. So rather than change the volume of your speakers/amps, you'll want to change the volume slider for the CFX track in your DAW, and perhaps also apply compression or limiter effects to the track too if you want.
---------------
The Limiter button:
If you have the CFX interface's volume sliders set around the levels that the presets come up with by default, then as I said, you probably will rarely get the signal to clip. And the limiter will do absolutely nothing, *unless* the output signal starts to clip; it will not affect the sound in any way until you get clipping. If you do start to clip, the Limiter takes action (if it's on) and reduces the amount of distortion you'll hear. It's definitely a bad thing if the Limiter ever starts to do anything, because that means you have started clipping (prior to the limiter even touching the signal). But if you've started clipping, you've already got a big problem - the Limiter is hopefully making it less bad! If you've got the volume sliders set not-too-high, then the signal hopefully never clips, and thus the limiter will never change the sound in any way.

The one case where I would change that advice on the Limiter is if you're using the CFX as a plugin within a DAW. In this case, you're probably best to turn off the CFX Limiter and use your DAW's limiter on the CFX track (or just turn down the volume on the CFX track so it isn't clipping any longer).

Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816301
02/16/19 07:07 PM
02/16/19 07:07 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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IME the limiter actually causes clipping and dropouts. Turning it off had no I'll effects and eliminated the problem.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816303
02/16/19 07:12 PM
02/16/19 07:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 27
Portland OR
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Jeff Hurchalla Offline
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I'm far from dogmatic about what I think anyone must do (though for reference I wrote the limiter). Whatever works best for you is a good idea in my opinion, and there may be something going on that's unexpected or perhaps a bug, who knows!

Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816305
02/16/19 07:19 PM
02/16/19 07:19 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Oh you did? Uh oh....what timing! I hope you didn't see what I wrote about the UI in that other thread! smile

But on two Macs I've used, there is something going on with the limiter that causes dropouts/clipping. I got my settings to the point where everything works, and haven't played with it much since then, but I do note that the limiter is one of the things to try toggling if people are having trouble fixing sound issues.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816310
02/16/19 07:28 PM
02/16/19 07:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,015
Sofia, Bulgaria
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Jeff, I just found a small bug in Garritan CFX, just sent you an email, hopefully you still use that email smile If not, let me know, I can also describe it here but before raising a possibly false alarm, I’ll wait for your answer first.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816434
02/17/19 05:09 AM
02/17/19 05:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 561
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Celestis
I agree with Jeff on the volume issue.
You generally amp up at the end of the signal chain, because that's where the beefy amp with lots of headroom sits.

Digital clipping is to be avoided at all costs... man I wish today's mastering engineer would follow that principle. So much music out there with audible clipping mastered into the mix, it is staggering.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Garritan CFX Full Best Settings? [Re: -Jay-] #2816611
02/17/19 03:19 PM
02/17/19 03:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 15
California
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AdagioLearner Offline
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California
Thanks everyone for the great advice in this thread. I was getting clipping after 15-20 minutes of practice until I saw Jeff's post. I essentially reversed my volume settings (higher on the keyboard, lower in Garritan CFX and DAW). I had a basic misunderstanding of audio engineering and the audio chain. This morning I practiced some Chopin Preludes with high dynamic range and lots of pedal for an hour without any issues. I was so close to giving up on this VST because my only option was to restart my laptop after clipping started. But with proper settings the sound is incredible. Thanks everyone!

I have a Roland RD2000, Focal Alpha 6.5 monitors, MacBook Pro 2016 with 16GB RAM, Garritan CFX Full and Logic Pro X. I add Loopback when I'm practicing on Discord.

Cheers!

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