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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814979 02/14/19 07:28 AM
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Of course Steinway piano's are an investment. But an investment in what, and what type of return are we looking for. It most certainly is not a direct monetary return. As most products pianos are subject to deterioration therefore depreciating assets. Also the demand for Steinway pianos is not bigger than the supply. If that were the case second hand pianos were more expensive than new ones. That happens only to products such as a subset of Patek Philippe watches or some luxury mega-yachts (as Sheiks typically don't like waiting while their yacht is being build). I actually expect that the demand supply balance for Steinway pianos is more likely to swing to oversupply than the other way around.
Now what type of return would you get: musical? That would ask for another investment: time to learn to play the piano.. now that's something the typical "investment" buyer probably didn't account for.

Last edited by WimPiano; 02/14/19 07:33 AM.
Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815128 02/14/19 11:51 AM
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Under the trade laws in most western countries, once a product is sold from the retail outlet, it becomes used and the value almost always drops. One can't sell a used piano as new.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815224 02/14/19 02:18 PM
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The terms "investment" and "appreciation" are terms that can quickly be altered in meaning when the person using them gets cornered as to exactly what they mean. Advertising and marketing is full of "weasel words" intended to convey one meaning but leavi g room for the advertiser or salesperson to "weasel out" from it legally.

Marketing 101. Amazing how many people fall for it. And there is strong psychological research behind it. People are being manipulated right and left without realizing it.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
P W Grey #2815237 02/14/19 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
The terms "investment" and "appreciation" are terms that can quickly be altered in meaning when the person using them gets cornered as to exactly what they mean. Advertising and marketing is full of "weasel words" intended to convey one meaning but leavi g room for the advertiser or salesperson to "weasel out" from it legally.

Marketing 101. Amazing how many people fall for it. And there is strong psychological research behind it. People are being manipulated right and left without realizing it.

Pwg



"Weasel Words" I like that Peter! It's a very deceptive practice that has been around forever, but I think it has picked up a lot of steam in the past couple of decades -- using words intentionally to mislead other, know how they will probably interpret them, and then redefining them with an alternative definition that makes one look innocent and misunderstood of the act of deception when they were craftily, conveniently, and strategically chosen from the beginning to bait the trap.

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815271 02/14/19 04:00 PM
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Case in point:

There was recently a local TV ad from a Pizza parlour advertising the first pizza at regular price and the "second, third, or fourth" pizza at half price. The key word here, I think, was "or." Meaning that if you bought four pizzas, only the fourth was at half price, not the second and third and fourth. I had the clear feeling that most people would fall for the ad and think that all the pizzas after the first were at half price. Clever, but intentionally deceptive, I think.

I can imagine that the ad brought in several rather surprised and disappointed customers.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815324 02/14/19 05:09 PM
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A financial investiment..... that's a hard sell. An investment in one's artistry, mental healthy, overall well-being, etc. - that's much more realistic.


"Play Bach constantly. That will be your best means of progress." -F.Chopin
Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815343 02/14/19 05:45 PM
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I saw a receipt for a Steinway Centennial, ~1876, sold new for $1,600.
That same piano, today, is worth...$20,000, original condition?
That is considerable appreciation, if you just look at the numbers.
But how many small houses would $1,600 buy in 1876?

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Craig Hair #2815344 02/14/19 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Hair
I saw a receipt for a Steinway Centennial, ~1876, sold new for $1,600.
That same piano, today, is worth...$20,000, original condition?
[...]Craig


An 1876 "original condition" Steinway for $20,000.00. Would you not just be spending $20,000.00 for a core for complete rebuilding?

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815348 02/14/19 05:55 PM
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Yeah, but not just any core.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Craig Hair #2815358 02/14/19 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Hair
I saw a receipt for a Steinway Centennial, ~1876, sold new for $1,600.
That same piano, today, is worth...$20,000, original condition?
That is considerable appreciation, if you just look at the numbers.
But how many small houses would $1,600 buy in 1876?

Be well,
Craig

$1600 is $37,639 in today's dollars. Plus whatever money would have been spent on rebuilds over the years.

So maybe, if you buy a limited edition, and you get lucky and it is considered desirable in 100+ years, and you didn't play the damn thing so you didn't have to spend on upkeep, and you had a corner to stuff it in rent free, your heirs, or heir's heirs could turn a modest profit after a full rebuild.

These days they are priced as if that is sure to happen, so, good luck. I'll check in on this thread in 100 years or so. :0

Last edited by RogerRL; 02/14/19 06:17 PM.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Craig Hair #2815363 02/14/19 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Hair
I saw a receipt for a Steinway Centennial, ~1876, sold new for $1,600.
That same piano, today, is worth...$20,000, original condition?
That is considerable appreciation, if you just look at the numbers.
But how many small houses would $1,600 buy in 1876?


You got me curious! Using a handy inflation calculator, $1600 USD in 1876 would have the same purchasing power as today $37, 639.18 today. An investment that doesn't beat inflation is not exactly fantastic. Also the best I could find was a home in Brooklyn, NY was $2500 in 1853 and $7000-12000 in 1900, so I suspect $1600 is a little low. Farmland could have been purchased anywhere from $50-300 an acre though so I suspect that $1600 worth of farm acreage would have a been a much better investment than that Steinway Centennial laugh

sources: http://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1876?amount=1600
https://247wallst.com/investing/201...-things-cost-in-america-1776-to-today/2/


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815654 02/15/19 09:23 AM
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There is something wrong with those inflation calculators; I can't trust them.
Just comparing the cost of a new Steinway concert grand then and now, the inflation rate must be much higher
Were that the case, I should be able to buy a new D for less than $40,000.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2815922 02/15/19 05:26 PM
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You are correct. The inflation calculators only measure average rates of inflation, rather than the rates for any particular item. There are lots of items that have gone up faster than the rate of inflation and lots which have gone up slower than the rate of inflation. The average rate is listed as 2.23% over the 143 year period from then to now. If the actual rate of the Steinway Model D inflation rate were 3.3% (only 1% more per year), the price would be over $160,000 today, about right. Think about the price of home computers in 1980 and today. Their inflation rate is actually negative. Compare that to the cost of a private college education in 1980 and today. Just the opposite.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chrispy #2815960 02/15/19 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by squidbot
Originally Posted by Craig Hair
I saw a receipt for a Steinway Centennial, ~1876, sold new for $1,600.
That same piano, today, is worth...$20,000, original condition?
That is considerable appreciation, if you just look at the numbers.
But how many small houses would $1,600 buy in 1876?


You got me curious! Using a handy inflation calculator, $1600 USD in 1876 would have the same purchasing power as today $37, 639.18 today. An investment that doesn't beat inflation is not exactly fantastic. Also the best I could find was a home in Brooklyn, NY was $2500 in 1853 and $7000-12000 in 1900, so I suspect $1600 is a little low. Farmland could have been purchased anywhere from $50-300 an acre though so I suspect that $1600 worth of farm acreage would have a been a much better investment than that Steinway Centennial laugh

sources: http://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1876?amount=1600
https://247wallst.com/investing/201...-things-cost-in-america-1776-to-today/2/


So a Steinway is a *SLIGHTLY* better investment than burying my money in the backyard. Nice. I wonder how those numbers change in the Teflon era?


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2816086 02/16/19 09:01 AM
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I don’t think we can apply the straight inflation rate from over the last 150 ish years to the price of hand made pianos. Back in the 1860s everything was handmade. No assembly lines. Labor was the cheapest part of manufacturing. Wood and iron were plentiful. Now, skilled craftsmanship is very expensive. Spruce and maple are really expensive because mature wood from these trees is not an unlimited supply. If we use straight line inflation for calculating the modern price of Steinway pianos, as Craig Hair pointed out, those prices are way off. But I’m no economist, I’m just a co-finance manager for the j&j team 😎


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2816264 02/16/19 04:23 PM
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I paid $13,000 for my 1912 Model O Steinway. Just had it tuned yesterday. You can hear it on a recent PW recital and my YT link below.

I don’t think I would get $13K if I sold it now, I guess I over paid, but having spent months searching for a good condition grand Steinway in the private market was taking its toll on me (the next choice I was facing was spending $8K for a 1980-1990 baby Steinway grand in brown wood casing that was in awful condition that a widower was trying to unload. I hated how it sounded, 2 keys were chipped,and there were deep scratches and dents all over the piano. If I hadn’t found my current piano, I probably would have gone for a Yamaha instead for the same price range. I just love the deep bass of my piano and fell in love with it so when it was advertised for under $15K, I latched onto it...

Last edited by AssociateX; 02/16/19 04:26 PM.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2820098 02/25/19 09:49 PM
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I've had stories that appear to be from 2 different law firms popping up in my Facebook feed about this. Has anyone else seen this? I guess it's b/c I like so many piano related pages.

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2820238 02/26/19 07:24 AM
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I would say buying a Steinway (or any top of the line piano) is an investment-in your musical enjoyment.



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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2820244 02/26/19 07:40 AM
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The inflation and buying power calculators have to be misleading. Young women were expected to live on $7 a week in the early 1900s. Granted they did not live well on that, but that's what they were paid for 80 hours a week in the clothing industry. . . .

By way of a further thought, one will never get back what one paid for a piano, new or otherwise. And don't forget costs of tuning and maintenance, etc., in the calculation. An 1876 piano, if it arrives in 2019, will have been tuned and rebuilt many times over.

Pianos are not a financial investment (actually they are, but it's a bad one). But they are fun!

Last edited by Rank Piano Amateur; 02/26/19 07:44 AM.
Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
AssociateX #2820473 02/26/19 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AssociateX
I paid $13,000 for my 1912 Model O Steinway. Just had it tuned yesterday. You can hear it on a recent PW recital and my YT link below.


You really need to have those repetition levers serviced, if not replaced completely. They are worn out and make noises. Also, in that state they will not give you the feeling of a really well maintained Steinway action. And while you are at it, let the technician have a look at all the other tear and wear components of the actions. When the repetition levers are worn out, it's highly likely that man other components are in need of service.

I assume that the recital recording with the Chopin e-minor Nocturne was done without a tuner near the piano within, like, 4 months or so. Anything closer than that, I'd suggest you change the tuner or have a good technician look at at the state of the pin block.

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