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Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: StasNick] #2814455 02/13/19 08:05 AM
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I made the same recordings with binaural sound and inserted headphones:
1. Bach Prelude & Fugue No 6 in D Min WTC II:
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>
Original Binaural recording >>

2. Beethoven Sonata No 17 (1st mov):
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>
Original Binaural recording >>

3. Schubert/Liszt Staendchen:
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>
Original Binaural recording >>

Yes, there is a difference (for example: a binauarl recording has a slightly higher signal level - it is louder, but the stereo base is narrower, and there is no reverb effect). But I do not think that this difference is significant.
Still, in order to radically improve the sound, we have to do post-processing. Since I do not see other options. I am also a rather lazy person, so I tried to set up a preset once, in order to do everything as simply and quickly as possible smile

As for VST:
I could not unequivocally say that they are better than the built-in digital piano generator. Their advantage is the presence of the best reverb effects and recording from different microphones (with mixing in the reverb from the room). Many people like it. But they also have disadvantages: they react badly to the keyboard, they do not support the half-pedal, they do not track the Note-off velocity parameter (ie, VST cannot transmit various subtle touches to the keyboard that the digital piano can transmit). I checked this parameter in Garritan CFX and it really is.

There is another option for a more beautiful recording of a digital piano: record it the way an acoustic piano is recorded. That is, using external high-quality microphones and in a good room. But it is expensive and much longer.

Last edited by StasNick; 02/13/19 08:06 AM.

I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
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Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: CyberGene] #2814682 02/13/19 03:31 PM
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Wow thanks StasNick! That does sound so much better. Are you actually using ProTools to do the final mix? Anyone know of any Windows alternatives? And maybe cheaper laugh


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords)
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: CyberGene] #2814685 02/13/19 03:42 PM
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1. I'm loving the playing displayed in this thread. Bravo to all of you, I'm really jealous!

2. I've never really "gotten" binaural audio for piano sampling. I've spent a lot of time over the years consuming 3D positional audio and binaural sampling in various contexts, and I've yet to hear a piano sample from the player perspective that *matters.* I feel that the current state of binaural recording is such that very clear, point-source sounds that move around are the best examples, and a piano soundboard has a such a large surface area that any positional effect is completely damped out.

This isn't to say that some might find a binaural sample to be more pleasing/realistic (i.e., with headphones I prefer CyberGene's binaural output to the speaker output), but every one I've heard, including VSTs, always sound like they're originating from the center of my head.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: CyberGene] #2814694 02/13/19 04:00 PM
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Binaural recording doesn't work for everyone. The microphones have to assume a certain head and ear shape and some people prefer positioning by turning the head, which doesn't work with binaural recording. Try this example:



Then try to replicate THAT with digital instruments. wink


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: JoeT] #2814714 02/13/19 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Binaural recording doesn't work for everyone. The microphones have to assume a certain head and ear shape and some people prefer positioning by turning the head, which doesn't work with binaural recording.


Oh yes, I'm aware smile I actually had the privilege of having custom measurements and silicone ear molds made for me for a binaural setup back a couple of decades ago for a tech demo/evaluation. That was weird. And I've been waiting for headphones with gyro/accelerometer (or a lighthouse) setup to allow for real-time head tracking, though I expect the processing would really color the sound.

That demo was actually quite good to my ears, Joe. Most binaural setups I've heard with the mic at player position have been pretty meh to me. This one really captures the natural reverb of the environment, which I find I prefer in samples.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: StasNick] #2814735 02/13/19 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by StasNick
Hello!
I play on the Clavinova CLP 635. And I also noticed that the sound on the recording is significantly different from the live sound (and even from the sound in the headphones).
I think the fact is that the sound samples are perfectly recorded (without reverberations and without sounds from the room). Probably, this is correct if the sound will be output through the built-in speakers (then reverberations from the body and the room will be added). Then everything sounds great.
But if we do the MIDI to Audio conversion using these samples, the result will be too perfect and dry. The sound will be recorded in a perfectly isolated and deaf room. And it immediately cuts our ears. This is perceived unnatural.

I thought about this for a while. And I even had to learn the basics of sound processing (although I have never done sound processing and am new to this field).
The main problems of the original sound (which is obtained after recording from the digital piano):
1. Recording is too quiet.
2. The recording does not contain reverb and sound reflection. No effect from the room.

And I came to the following conclusions:
1. Recording is best done according to the instructions (disable the IAC function and binaural effects). Then it turns out just pure original sound.
2. You can turn off the built-in reverb effects. They are quite mediocre. This will not spoil the original sound.
3. And then you need a mandatory post-processing on the computer.
It is necessary to compress the resulting record a little. This will make the signal a little louder. The best option I found is parallel compression (when the compressed signal is mixed with the original one).
4. It is necessary to mix the signal in parallel with the effect of reverb. By selecting the degree of this mix (the original signal and the signal with reverb) I can adjust the beautiful sound. Usually sound engineers have several versions of piano records (from different microphones and with different levels of reverberations) and I just try to repeat this effect with digital sound.
5. I also add a signal with an equalizer (I raise the high frequencies slightly and expand the stereo pan-A).
One of the best lessons for mixing the sound of an acoustic piano, which I found, is here >>.

I set up a preset with all these effects and now I quickly process any record. In the end, I get a sound that I like a lot more. Records sound richer and more natural.

I recently mastered this method, and did not have time to redo my old records. Therefore, for the examples I used excellent MIDI recordings from the Yamaha contest (you can download them here >>). I played and recorded these MIDI files on my digital piano:
1. Bach Prelude & Fugue No 6 in D Min WTC II:
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>

2. Beethoven Sonata No 17 (1st mov):
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>

3. Schubert/Liszt Staendchen:
Original recording >> (Clavinova CLP 635)
Record after my processing >>

I think we need to take into account all these features of the digital piano when we want to make beautiful recordings.
Perhaps in the future, Yamaha could add a cool compressor and reverb to its devices. But is it necessary if individual software solutions will always be more convenient and better? Therefore, it remains for us to master and study cunning programs and plugins for them smile


great tips but if you can get a nice sound from the clavinova after post processing, you can do the same on any vst.

Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: CyberGene] #2814742 02/13/19 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pold

great tips but if you can get a nice sound from the clavinova after post processing, you can do the same on any vst.

Yep, that's what they were made for.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: Chrispy] #2814917 02/14/19 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by squidbot
Wow thanks StasNick! That does sound so much better. Are you actually using ProTools to do the final mix? Anyone know of any Windows alternatives? And maybe cheaper laugh


Thank you squidbot!
So the post-processing record is different (for the better). And it was important for me to learn this from outsiders smile To understand that I am moving in the right direction.

As for post-processing techniques:
You can use any program in which you can mix sound and apply third-party effects (VST plug-ins). But in the lesson given by me, the general principle is clearly shown: to divide the original signal into components (high frequencies, low frequencies, reverberations from the room, etc.), and then mix it all up. Usually for mixing the sound of an acoustic piano use several recordings from different microphones. But the digital piano already has quality samples. And we have to add a little bit of “magic” to make it sound the same as it sounds when playing live.
I use StudioOne on Windows. But there are good free analogues, for example, Cakewalk by Bandlab. And there are so many plugins for compression, reverb and equalization.


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
Re: Here's why new Yamaha DP-s sound bad on demos [Re: pold] #2814925 02/14/19 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pold
great tips but if you can get a nice sound from the clavinova after post processing, you can do the same on any vst.


pold, yes, of course, such post-processing can be done with any sound.
But the point is to improve the sound of the digital piano on recordings. And then transmit this sound in such a way that it was like a live performance (when the sound comes from the speakers of the digital piano and spreads around the room). I like the sound of the Clavinova (even more than any VST I've tried), but there is a problem: when I record in the WAV file, I get a dry sound that doesn’t sound so natural. I think this is a feature of any digital piano.

But the problem is not that the sound of a digital piano is unrealistic, but that our brain refuses to consider such a sound realistic: without reverberations and reflections from the room. We are used to hearing live recordings made on a microphone and processed by professional sound producers (usually classical music recordings contain a lot of reverberations and a small amount of compression). And we want to hear something like that on a digital piano. As it turns out, this is not very difficult to achieve.


I started learning to play the piano in November 2017.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-635 | SoundCloud >>
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