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Opinions/Advice?
#2814721 02/13/19 05:30 PM
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Long time reader of the forum, and avid reader of the digital piano section. Never had much call to join, until now.

Would it be possible for people to listen to this short video and give an opinion? I don't want to give any context so to not bias any comments. It's fairly obvious, but not everyone can hear it, apparently.

The scale starts on C, and I've tried to play it as evenly as possible.

Thank you in advance for any comments.

Scale

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814726 02/13/19 05:37 PM
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That G4 sticks out like a sore!


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814728 02/13/19 05:38 PM
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The fifth degree is louder/punchier...

Re: Opinions/Advice?
CyberGene #2814729 02/13/19 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
That G4 sticks out like a sore!

Do you have absolute pitch? wink


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Opinions/Advice?
JoeT #2814731 02/13/19 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
That G4 sticks out like a sore!

Do you have absolute pitch? wink


He said he started on C, so I just counted wink And at least I can distinguish octaves, it couldn't have been C3 or C5. Elementary, me dear Watson smile


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814736 02/13/19 05:45 PM
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Agree. The G is a bit louder than the others.

I have had that same thing on digital pianos I have owned.

On some, it can be corrected by making adjustments within the piano settings.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814747 02/13/19 06:14 PM
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Hey, thanks for the quick replies. Yes G4 sticks out badly. It's a brand new mid range digital piano, and It's almost unplayable. The settings do mitigate it slightly, but it's always noticeable. It's a shame, because when you don't use that note, it's a great piano.

It also rings with some weird bell effect when you use different piano voices. I recorded it with my smart phone, but every person I showed it to says they can't hear anything strange, including the retailer. It sounds really clear to me, and very off-putting.

Here's the video if anyone likes to listen to a piano sounding like a school bell.

piano impersonating a bell

Currently in a 2 week old dispute with the retailer over it all, so it's nice to know I'm not imagining it, like they implied. Ridiculous really.

Thanks again for the very accurate replies.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814780 02/13/19 07:15 PM
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I recognise Billy Joel there.

Is that a Kawai CN series piano by any chance?

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814781 02/13/19 07:17 PM
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The retailer can't hear anything, because he isn't a pianist.

The action needs regulation, should not happen on a new instrument.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814918 02/14/19 03:17 AM
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Hello Blue72, welcome to the forum.

Yes, I also hear the G4 note as being louder than the others. The key sensor is the likely culprit.
One way to double check would be to use a MIDI monitor (the one built into Pianoteq's settings window will be fine), then try playing the G4 and F4 (or A4) simultaneously using the same finger. The note-on velocities should be comparable, however I expect G4 will have a larger note-on velocity.

Regarding the "piano impersonating a bell" video, it's rather difficult to judge the sound from this smartphone recording, although I'm able to identify that you're playing a Kawai CA78.

Originally Posted by Blue72
It also rings with some weird bell effect when you use different piano voices.


Does this occur in Pianist mode or Sound mode?
If the former, which Rendering Characters produce this "bell effect"? If the latter, which sounds?
Does the effect occur only through speakers, or headphones also? Is there a reason for recording this clip using your phone, but the scale using the USB Audio recorder?

Originally Posted by Blue72
Currently in a 2 week old dispute with the retailer over it all, so it's nice to know I'm not imagining it, like they implied. Ridiculous really.


If you are not satisfied with the response provided by your dealer, my recommendation would be to raise this topic with your local Kawai distributor (e.g. Kawai UK, assuming you are based in the UK).

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
JoeT #2814939 02/14/19 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I recognise Billy Joel there.

Is that a Kawai CN series piano by any chance?

Hey it's a CA78.
Originally Posted by JoeT
The retailer can't hear anything, because he isn't a pianist.

The action needs regulation, should not happen on a new instrument.

I agree, seems like a poor condition to send out a new untouched instrument.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814941 02/14/19 04:58 AM
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Re the "bell" - I assume you're referring to the "twang" sound. I generally love that kind of artifact - HOWEVER - it does sound rather unnatural to have it stand out on a few notes, with the other notes not making the twang. I definitely hear it as being too uneven. As James said, see if sounds the same over headphones etc etc.

Greg.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Kawai James #2814946 02/14/19 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Blue72, welcome to the forum.

Yes, I also hear the G4 note as being louder than the others. The key sensor is the likely culprit.
One way to double check would be to use a MIDI monitor (the one built into Pianoteq's settings window will be fine), then try playing the G4 and F4 (or A4) simultaneously using the same finger. The note-on velocities should be comparable, however I expect G4 will have a larger note-on velocity.

Regarding the "piano impersonating a bell" video, it's rather difficult to judge the sound from this smartphone recording, although I'm able to identify that you're playing a Kawai CA78.

Originally Posted by Blue72
It also rings with some weird bell effect when you use different piano voices.


Does this occur in Pianist mode or Sound mode?
If the former, which Rendering Characters produce this "bell effect"? If the latter, which sounds?
Does the effect occur only through speakers, or headphones also? Is there a reason for recording this clip using your phone, but the scale using the USB Audio recorder?

Originally Posted by Blue72
Currently in a 2 week old dispute with the retailer over it all, so it's nice to know I'm not imagining it, like they implied. Ridiculous really.


If you are not satisfied with the response provided by your dealer, my recommendation would be to raise this topic with your local Kawai distributor (e.g. Kawai UK, assuming you are based in the UK).

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James, thanks for the welcome.

I wouldn't know where to start with the midi thing as I've literally never used anything to do with midi. To be honest I don't think I need to check it as clearly something is amiss. I appreciate that smartphone microphones are not the best, but even accounting for that, it seems really clear to me, although others i've asked can't notice it.

The reason one is recorded with a smartphone, and one with usb, is so I could show a fuller picture of the issue, and also to prove the issue is coming from my own instrument. Sounds crazy that you have to go to these lengths with a retailer, but that's where we are. The issue occurs in both pianist and smart mode. The loud note is most prominent in pianist mode, and the ringing effect is worst in the sound mode, especially the EK sample (I think from memory).

I understand that I could contact Kawai, but a Kawai sales agent has already seen the ringing video and diagnosed that it can be remedied using the settings. I've tried every possible setting and nothing makes it "normal", although you can lessen it somewhat. I'm not sure that Kawai have seen the scale video made with usb, as when I sent that to the retailer, I received no acknowledgement that they had received it.

The retailer is implying that I just dont like the piano, and/or the samples, and nothing could be further from the truth. The action is great and when you play in keys with no g's, it sounds really good. As we currently stand, the retailer is going to ask Kawai to send an engineer, but there's a possibility that I will be charged for their time if they find no fault. (The retailers words). I am UK based fyi.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
sullivang #2814949 02/14/19 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Re the "bell" - I assume you're referring to the "twang" sound. I generally love that kind of artifact - HOWEVER - it does sound rather unnatural to have it stand out on a few notes, with the other notes not making the twang. I definitely hear it as being too uneven. As James said, see if sounds the same over headphones etc etc.

Greg.

Yes, I know what you mean. If it was only on one sample and was spread evenly over all keys, the ringing wouldn't be the end of the world. Saying that, the video doesn't do justice to just how annoying it can get. It happens with or without headphones.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2814956 02/14/19 06:19 AM
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Helo Blue72, thank you for your reply, and for confirming that you are based in the UK.

Would it be possible to post two different USB recordings, one that you believe sounds normal, and another that you believe demonstrates the "bell-like" character. I wonder if the "ringing" that you're hearing is simply a characteristic of the resonance modelling - perhaps undamped string resonance?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2815027 02/14/19 10:05 AM
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I am interested in how this gets resolved. I don't know in the end whether the problem I had with my KDP 110 was piano placement or resonance modelling. I had a problem with a specific key like Blue72 does, but it occurred when the key was pressed as part of a chord. In the end I returned the piano in its 30 days free return and got a casio.

My experience was that the key action is great, even for such a low end model. It is superior to the more expensive Casio's I replaced it with. The CASIO’s sound system deals better with my practise space and doesn't have the one extra loud key. In the end I didn't chase it up as a fault and just returned the piano within the 30 day return.

I could imagine at the price level of the CA-78 that model was very specifically chosen so swapping it for some other model is not an option. You just want a CA-78 that works as expected.

Kevin

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Kawai James #2815153 02/14/19 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Helo Blue72, thank you for your reply, and for confirming that you are based in the UK.

Would it be possible to post two different USB recordings, one that you believe sounds normal, and another that you believe demonstrates the "bell-like" character. I wonder if the "ringing" that you're hearing is simply a characteristic of the resonance modelling - perhaps undamped string resonance?

Kind regards,
James
x

Hey James, not totally sure what you're asking for, as all the samples ring to some extent. I've had another play with it today, and the pianist mode samples are not as bad as the sound mode samples. The EX concert grand is by far the worst sample. I've been through all the settings and dropped all the resonances to the minimum, and it has some effect, but nothing major. I am in the process of making another usb recording so I'll post it when it's ready.

The retailer has today informed me that a Kawai technician will be paying me a home visit just to see if there is actually a fault. He will call to make an appoinment so I can discuss it with him before he arrives hopefully.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
KevinM #2815159 02/14/19 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I am interested in how this gets resolved. I don't know in the end whether the problem I had with my KDP 110 was piano placement or resonance modelling. I had a problem with a specific key like Blue72 does, but it occurred when the key was pressed as part of a chord. In the end I returned the piano in its 30 days free return and got a casio.

My experience was that the key action is great, even for such a low end model. It is superior to the more expensive Casio's I replaced it with. The CASIO’s sound system deals better with my practise space and doesn't have the one extra loud key. In the end I didn't chase it up as a fault and just returned the piano within the 30 day return.

I could imagine at the price level of the CA-78 that model was very specifically chosen so swapping it for some other model is not an option. You just want a CA-78 that works as expected.

Kevin

I'm also within my 30 days, so it's not really a problem to return it. Hopefully they will accept there's a fault and replace it, as it's a good action, and the piano samples are also decent, once you've delved into the settings. The last thing I want to do is enter back into the minefield of picking a new one.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
KevinM #2815384 02/14/19 08:25 PM
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Hello Kevin,

Originally Posted by KevinM
I am interested in how this gets resolved. I don't know in the end whether the problem I had with my KDP 110 was piano placement or resonance modelling. I had a problem with a specific key like Blue72 does, but it occurred when the key was pressed as part of a chord.


I'm also not sure why the note you found to be objectionable in your KDP110 only occurred when played as a part of a chord, however I don't believe it's related to the loud note issue demonstrated in Blue72's scale recording.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2815390 02/14/19 08:34 PM
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Hello Blue72, thank you for your reply.

Originally Posted by Blue72
Hey James, not totally sure what you're asking for, as all the samples ring to some extent.


That might simply be a characteristic of the piano sounds, however it's difficult to judge from a low quality smartphone recording.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I've had another play with it today, and the pianist mode samples are not as bad as the sound mode samples.


The "Pianist mode" resonance system and "Sound mode" resonance system are completely different (the former being more advanced). You may be aware that in "Pianist mode", it's possible to tap and hold the screen, then swipe up or down to adjust the amount of resonance. Does this, or selecting a different "Rendering Character" preset (by swiping left or right on the main screen) change your impression of the sound?

Originally Posted by Blue72
The EX concert grand is by far the worst sample. I've been through all the settings and dropped all the resonances to the minimum, and it has some effect, but nothing major.


So even with the various resonance simulations turned off, you're still able to hear this sound? This leads me to believe that you're hearing the natural characteristics of the originally recorded grand piano. May I ask if you have owned another digital piano or an acoustic piano in the past, or if you have a particular piano that you are using as a frame of reference to compare with the CA78?

Originally Posted by Blue72
The retailer has today informed me that a Kawai technician will be paying me a home visit just to see if there is actually a fault. He will call to make an appoinment so I can discuss it with him before he arrives hopefully.


That's good to hear. Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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