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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Retsacnal #2814247 02/12/19 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
T

Everyone who invests plans to cash out at some point. Everyone who buys a piano is not expecting to cash out at big T. If everyone who bought a Steinway expected to resell it later, then there would be a surplus of them in the marketplace, driving the values down.


Greetings,
Ummm, well, that is a rather accurate description of the current situation. The rebuildable Steinways are piling up in inventories, 10-20 year old Steinways are sitting, unused, because the kids are gone, (with no room for the piano), and the owner can't believe a piano they paid $45 K for, 20 years ago, is only worth $20 K now. You can hardly give them to a dealer...

No, not an uncommon event in my experience.
Regards,

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814293 02/12/19 08:50 PM
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I thought for sure this B would be gone by now. Price seems great for being only a couple of years old. Unless there's something not right with it. It's not far from me in Monrovia.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=36093


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814315 02/12/19 09:51 PM
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For most of us, a piano certainly could be considered an investment. An investment with negative returns.

Alternatively, we could look at pianos as long-term expenses with de minimus resale value.

For a professional teacher, the situation is more positive. Any good piano can enable the business. And tax authorities often permit rapid depreciation of the asset (~7 years) to offset teaching income. So a case can be made where some teachers in high-tax brackets (and some luck) may enjoy modest, positive financial returns.

Dedicated teaching space and other business incidentals may also be afforded tax benefits. Speak with a tax consultant before any "investment".

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814348 02/13/19 12:02 AM
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I am an accountant by trade.

I have had people come to me, having bought an "investment" and found out that it is a dead duck. Many times I have asked "didn't you get advice"? They have replied almost without exception "yes. The guy selling it said it was good".

Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814354 02/13/19 12:14 AM
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Anyone who swallows the "investment" routine deserves everything they get (or lose). They have more money than brains and the salesperson saw them coming and...

S...way is a master at marketing (which generally translates to manipulation and/or lying). All too common.

Pwg


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814407 02/13/19 05:44 AM
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I think only an Idiot would buy a Steinway and expect to make money selling it a few years later. If it's true all the people with money would have done it .
When I bought mine some years ago, the dealer ( in north Hollywood) tried to convince me it would appreciate overtime and I said ok, I knew they were just fluffing. I bought piano so I can have a good time with it not so much of getting my money back in full. The key is don't buy them new.


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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Dave Ferris #2814506 02/13/19 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
I thought for sure this B would be gone by now. Price seems great for being only a couple of years old. Unless there's something not right with it. It's not far from me in Monrovia.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=36093


Price seems fair but who knows about the condition. Go check it out for us and report back!

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814520 02/13/19 12:30 PM
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Most if not all PW readers know that buying any piano, especially new, is not an investment in anything other than our musical enjoyment and a more convenient useful way to practice. But occasionally I read a post from a new member on PW asking about the value of the piano down the road and buying a good investment???!? Acoustic pianos, new and used are expensive. After the sale, there’s maintenance costs. It takes up precious floorspace. For the new buyer, they can tell their SO and family that even though it seems expensive for a piano but it’s an investment. Relieves any nagging guilt about seriously denting the family funds. We read far too many stories about people still getting duped with pyramid schemes to this day. So people don’t have to be idiots to be sold a product that they can barely afford but long to own and their expectations are dashed because they in fact lost money.
Happens every day.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
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I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814590 02/13/19 02:18 PM
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Steinway is not the only company that uses the notion of investment to lure (deceive) potential customers to buy their products.

Is Mason & Hamlin in your portfolio?

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814594 02/13/19 02:23 PM
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The way to understand this is that as an investment, pianos are just like bananas, only a lot slower -- decades instead of days.... ;-)


-- J.S.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
EricL #2814605 02/13/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by EricL
Steinway is not the only company that uses the notion of investment to lure (deceive) potential customers to buy their products.

Is Mason & Hamlin in your portfolio?


That's enlightening! Here on PW, it seems we have a lot of posters with "anti-Steinway" sentiments, b/c Steinway isn't their particular favorite brand for what ever reason. I'm both a Steinway and M&H fan. It's interesting that Steinway isn't the only manufacturer to make these kinds of statements. Maybe M&H is just borrowing from Steinway's playbook?

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
EricL #2814646 02/13/19 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by EricL
Steinway is not the only company that uses the notion of investment to lure (deceive) potential customers to buy their products.

Is Mason & Hamlin in your portfolio?


Interesting... 4.5% a year.



Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see
~Mark Twain
Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814656 02/13/19 03:59 PM
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I recently had a family member tell me that their 1980's Steinway M had gone up in value. They bought it lightly used in 2000 for $30K. I had to bring them back to reality by explaining that I recently demoed the same model 2 years newer, in excellent shape, with an asking price of $18K. Their response: "But the dealer said they would go up in value."

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Retsacnal #2814657 02/13/19 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by EricL
Steinway is not the only company that uses the notion of investment to lure (deceive) potential customers to buy their products.

Is Mason & Hamlin in your portfolio?


Interesting... 4.5% a year.

I wonder how the CFP Board would see that quote in light of their Code of Ethics and Standards of Conduct. On the other hand, I wonder if he's been quoted out of context (e.g. a "golden age" specimen in good condition might actually appreciate over time, but the web page seems to imply that a new one is a good investment).



Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see
~Mark Twain
Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814684 02/13/19 04:36 PM
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"Mason & Hamlin pianos, as well as other premium pianos, have appreciated in value higher than other investment-grade commodities such as gold, silver, or wine." How is it even legal to say this? Steinway's version: https://eu.steinway.com/en/pianos/investment/

I can't believe people listen to salesmen frown If it were true, you'd see hedge funds with warehouses full of pianos (they already have them for the three other "commodities" mentioned.)


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Chernobieff Piano #2814770 02/13/19 06:54 PM
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If a salesman tells you how good an investment a new piano is, ask him how many new pianos he has bought and stored away as investments. And he gets to buy them at the employee discount.


Boesendorfer 225 (1985)
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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
JohnSprung #2814772 02/13/19 07:00 PM
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I think the difference with bananas is that they have a very very short shelf life, whereas Steinways should last 20-30 years if not longer... so you could make an argument that "yes, it's a lot of money but amortized over 30 years it is more palatable."

I'm not saying purchasing a grand piano of any kind is an investment, but I also don't think people are idiots for "investing" in their personal enjoyment.

Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
Compañero #2814798 02/13/19 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Compañero
I think the difference with bananas is that they have a very very short shelf life, ....


Yes, exactly the point. With bananas, they decline fast enough that you see it happening. With pianos, it's not so obvious. (The downside of the analogy is that you can't rebuild a banana.)


-- J.S.

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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
JohnSprung #2814834 02/13/19 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by Compañero
I think the difference with bananas is that they have a very very short shelf life, ....


Yes, exactly the point. With bananas, they decline fast enough that you see it happening. With pianos, it's not so obvious. (The downside of the analogy is that you can't rebuild a banana.)


nor eat a piano...



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Re: Steinway Pianos-An investment Yes or No?
astrotoy #2814974 02/14/19 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by astrotoy
If a salesman tells you how good an investment a new piano is, ask him how many new pianos he has bought and stored away as investments. And he gets to buy them at the employee discount.

If the salesman can sell them as new, I don't see why this wouldn't work, other than the upfront cost of capital.


phacke

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