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Thanks for the demo, CyberGene. The action can definitely handle fast repetitions and then some. As you indicated, under certain circumstances it will require alternate approaches in positioning and articuation, but then I’d rather have this over an action that’s unrealistically accomodating.

No problem to have different taste, I love classical and jazz mainly, but a bit of everything form time to time. I like to think i have very brought taste generally.

In that other thread about CFX, if you really want to hear the quality of the CFX. IMO, the Tokyo Hiromi 2009 solo concert had an amazing version on youtube, but it got removed, it would put a lot of those other examples to shame, to my ears anyway.
I agree with the Alex C comments there, Pianos sound so much fatter in real life often (for a better a word), and in recordings can often come across thin if mics are positioned poorly.

Well, recordings often come across amazingly good, so I'm not too fussed. And the N.I Gentleman is a damn good approximation of what I remembered playing an upright with the lid and front taken off.

Greg.

Hi Gene,
I think you need to keep playing it through and try to eliminate tension in your forearms and wrists. I've played this on my Yamaha upright and I was able to get the repetitions fast enough. I think you are a better pianist than I am, but you probably haven't been working on the piece for long enough. At the repeated chords at 0:10 I think your wrists are a little low and stiff when you try to do the rapid repeats. I find that I can get more acceleration when the wrist starts slightly higher for the first chord, then it sinks down a bit for the second chord. When you do that, the falling hand is contributing to the second pulse. It means that the muscles that lift the hand in between the chords have less to do. Of course, there is a natural limit with the action, but I don't think you've reached it yet, unless there's an additional limitation with the sensors I'm not aware of. But the limit for a well-regulated upright Yamaha action hasn't been reached yet - so at this stage I think it's a technique issue. I think you will overcome it anyway without my comments, but I'm just passing on what I needed to do to play that Tocatto on my piano. I also think maybe if you can play less deeply into the keybed you might be able to rebound off the keys a bit faster - if that makes sense. You seem to press quite firmly to the bottom of the keybed compared to me. That may not be true, it just appears that way to me. It's a good thing most of the time, but on this Toccata I think you have to have a more superficial keypress that is weakening as you get closer to the bottom of the keybed. I think the speed you are coming off the keys is just as important as the speed pushing them down. Anyway, just a few comments. I hope I don't come across as rude. I do think you are a fine pianist and a better player than I am - I just want to offer what I can from learning that piece and encountering the same difficulties.

Not to drag the issue through the mud, but FWIW, the second one sounds brighter and clearler - is it just because of more fortissimo playing? (I'm referring to Khachaturian - Toccata - that one sounds brighter) The recording that sounded mellow (and the only one I had listened to in this thread at the time) was: Bach-Busoni - Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland. I didn't listen all the way through btw. (blush - sorry)

Greg.

Thanks, Ando, not rude at all! Im really struggling with those alternating hand chords at the beginning and couldn’t figure out how I can improve (besides of course with more practice but it’s apparent that I have to also change something). Your detailed suggestions make a lot of sense and I’ll definitely try all that soon. Thank you!

Ando, I would really like to thank you again! Your comment about my wrists being low made me analyze my posture, forearm and wrist position and I ultimately realized I’ve been sitting too high at the piano, since my forearms weren’t horizontal. They were too inclined with elbows much above the keyboard level and then palms coming at an angle to the keyboard hence no flexibility in the wrists and I was actually playing the rapid chord alternations through my forearms and not flexing wrists at all. I also know my favorite pianist Evgeni Bozhanov sits on a very low stool and has mentioned it’s what contributes to him playing more expressively. So, I lowered my chair to the lowest possible position and BTW I’m 1.82m, so even at that position my elbows are still not horizontal but are close to that. I hope it’s not a self-suggestion and a psychosomatic thing but I am able to play that rhythm now!

I’m not sure if you meant that but in any case you made my realize my posture and wrists might not be in the optimal position. I’ve never paid much attention to stuff like that, and since I’m self taught I probably do so many things wrong For instance, I bend my pinkies at an opposite angle compared to other fingers which is apparent from the videos and my mother in law, who’s a piano teacher, watched the videos yesterday and commented that after so many years (I guess more than 25 years now) there’s no hope in changing that and I better not try

But at least with the posture and sitting position I’ll try playing from the lowest chair position and see whether it’s indeed helping me.

Really appreciate your feedback! Cheers

I'm very happy I could be helpful to you, Gene! And I actually think it is possible to make positive changes to one's technique even after 30 years of playing. The only requirement is that it must really make sense to the body why you are making the changes. If a teacher just says something like, "lift your wrists higher", but there is no other information that convinces you why you should do this, you would probably not change it. But if there is a whole different understanding of your body mechanics which necessitates higher wrists, then certainly you could make substantial changes to a technique at any age. Anything that is mechanically advantageous will be accepted by the brain/body as long as it is given enough chance to establish itself. Of course, it is super important that any new changes are examined carefully so that they don't introduce any new problems. With that in mind, it might be a good idea to get a few lessons from a very experienced teacher just to confirm your thinking and work through the ideas objectively.

Just to add to my last post:

For me, the number one rule is "efficiency": any technique should be free of unusual tension. Most tension relates to being close to the end of the range of movement for a certain joint. So all joints should be within their normal range of movement 95% of the time. This means the muscles and tendons are in a state of mechanical advantage. When you get to the end of a range of movement, there is high tension so strain becomes a factor. This is ok for a brief time for a particular purpose, but it should persist for long because that tension leads to fatigue and possible eventual injury - or at the very least, a technique that can't progress beyond a certain point. So I think any technique change should be accompanied with a feeling of increased power/efficiency - even if the control isn't quite there at the beginning. The control will come with practice, as long as the muscles, tendons and joints are happy. I think with your talent level, if you made some changes in your biomechanics, you could reach a marvellous level of playing - even after playing for 30 years already and being older than the usual age to be making changes and improvement in technique.

Keep in mind that any blanket rule like "play with high wrists" is not good. The wrists are as dynamic as the fingers and arms. They should be free to move up and down, and side to side to assist with the efficiency between the arms and the fingers. No part of the body should be in a static position. So when I say the wrists could be higher, it's more that the average position could be higher, but it's subject to the individual moment and requirement. Blanket rules create stiffness and tension. Once you find the position of mechanical advantage, you follow what feels the best.

Sorry if I'm going on too long about this! I just want to make sure I don't cause you or anybody else any trouble or difficulties.

I’ve recorded a short video demonstrating and explaining how to reproduce the loud note issue consistently and easily.



I’m also pasting my explanation that I wrote in the description of that video:

There’s a well-known issue with Yamaha NU1 and NU1X pianos. Sometimes you play quietly but there’s a loud sound coming out. A lot has been discussed about that issue, so here’s my attempt to demonstrate how to reproduce it consistently. You have to press the key normally and then release it almost fully but not entirely, maybe just 1mm before top position. At that moment the key feels very light because the key has not reengaged the hammer and there’s no weight to push. That makes it very easy to press the key with a high velocity (compared to also throwing a hammer). You can see on the video that the loud strikes seem like I’m pushing them with higher force than the soft ones where I press the key fully released, but in reality I press with one and same force, which however results in different velocity depending on the underlying weight to push, or lack of it. Since there are sensors only under the keys (and not on the hammers), they detect only the key velocity and are fooled that this is a high velocity strike. That’s also a consequence of the upright action. In contrast to grand pianos, upright pianos don’t have a double repetition lever to allow for key to be repeated without being released fully. On a real upright that same scenario would result in either a very quiet strike or no sound at all. What’s interesting is Yamaha have implemented their sensors to detect when the key has been released only slightly or halfway and will produce either silent or quiet note. However the problem occurs in a very narrow area just before top position. All that being said I love my NU1X and I’ve adapted to anticipate the issue and even react to it in multiple ways: first I already have unconsciously adopted a technique to release keys fully when possible. Second, when I feel the key has become light I immediately react and push it lightly to compensate for the lack of hammer weight resistance. And third: when playing soft trills that usually require the keys to not be released fully (hence creating the chance for the issue to appear), I instead play leggiero, i.e. I tap the keys only slightly without pushing them to the bottom, or in other words I play them near the top position, rather than near the bottom position - it requires getting used to but is effective. I believe it’s a great instrument and it’s such a pity Yamaha haven’t implemented a solution to that problem but I guess that’s life.

If Yamaha intended to faithfully reproduce the ‘upright ‘ experience, we should hear nothing under these circumstances (instead of a loud note), right? But I wonder if going the other way would’ve been a good idea: adding a second sensor, a little extra tweaking, or whatever Yamaha concocted to make the upright action behave like a grand action. After all, there are no strings for the hammers to re-strike quickly.
A grand piano experience in a smaller -digital- piano with an upright action, who’s for this? Or is it not possible?

When I first learnt of these hybrid uprights, I was very curious whether they'd implement double-escapement simulation (like on a GH3), despite the fact that it's an upright action. It would be sort of strange to spend all that money, and yet lose a feature that is available on much cheaper models.

When you lift only partially and then play, you're playing without the back force of the hammer - yes? That must feel a bit weird.

I admire your calmness btw.

Greg.

I've thought a lot on how Yamaha could fix the issue and reread their AvantGrand patent (that I posted a year ago in the NV10 thread). There are some real difficulties with working around that issue without introducing so much complexity that it would turn it into a regular AvantGrand which would defeat the purpose of the NU1X being a cheap hybrid.

A particular problem with real uprights is in the "loud note" scenario they don't simply produce no note, it's a bit more complex than that, they sometimes generate a quiet note. I guess the hammer is not engage but there's still some friction that makes the key to kind of throw the hammer, albeit very lightly. With than in mind Yamaha couldn't simply add a simple contact sensor for the hammer that would serve as a fix for the loud note issue. Imagine this, the issue is happening, the key sensors says 127, however hammer also hit the rail and the hammer contact sensor generated a hit. Hence loud note is not fixed. A proper fix would require also hammer velocity sensing. However hammer velocity is complex, it requires twice faster computer to be able to read both key sensors and hammer sensors. It requires wiring and would probably require more space than the current compact cabinet. Furthermore, having both hammer and key sensors would allow for turning the upright action into behaving like grand action, e.g. allow for repeating keys without pressing them fully but that would be really weird, isn't it? You feel the key is light but it generates strikes... And why all the complexity and weirdness when you already have the N1 that is a proper grand hybrid.

I believe that's the explanation behind the loud note issue and why Yamaha kept it that way in NU1X. I can't say I like it and I try to be calm indeed, although the issue annoys from time to time But what's important to me is NU1X feels so much better as key touch than any other digital piano, CA-series included. I would go as far as to say after owning it I believe I wouldn't ever return to a regular digital piano. Hybrids all the way! And of course grand piano hybrids are the way to go but N1X is twice the price of NU1X.

Thanks for showing how to consistently demonstrate this, Gene. I'm glad you found a way to adapt to it as well, knowing how an issue manifests is the first step in resolving or working around it.

An upright action is naturally more compact than a grand, so on a silent upright there may not be much space for hammer sensors between the hammer shank and damper, though on a hybrid with no dampers or strings, it doesn't seem like it would be a problem.

This has had me thinking, how do other upright silent pianos handle the sensing, e.g., Kawai's AnytimeX system? I can't find any pictures of that mechanism, but Kawai does claim it uses (the same) IHSS technology to "capture the single movements of the action hammers."

I suspect other systems follow the Pianodisc method of installing standard dome caps under the keysticks (in which case they might also be susceptible to a loud note issue).

I'm wondering whether the situation is slightly different. Yamaha have allowed the key to be re-played with only partial releases to emulate double-escapement, just like in their GH3. The reason for the high velocities is that it looks like you are having to overcome some resistance near the top of the travel, and so finally when the resistance is overcome, the key goes down much faster than intended - it gives way suddenly, and is thus hard to control. Is there some resistance in that narrow window? Is it at the point where the hammer starts to be re-engaged?

Or, are you convinced that the partial release behaviour is only to emulate the very faint (or silent) notes that would result on a real upright?

EDIT: Actually, the partial repeat issue is completely separate, I guess. The only problem is the fact that the key velocity is higher than intended, and (as you point out), they are sensing the key velocity rather than the hammer velocity.

Greg.

(and if it is due to the sudden overcoming of friction, I guess a skilled technician might be able to regulate it somehow, to make the window even smaller. Roller knuckles come to mind

Greg.

The hammer is reengaged only when key is released fully (or almost fully, that depends on regulation). At that specific release point which is 1mm before top position there's nothing to overcome and there's no weight felt under the key. I am not very familiar with upright action mechanism but I believe the jack is pushing a piece called butt onto which the shank is glued. The escapement causes the jack to escape the butt and stop pushing it. Releasing the key will in turn make the jack spring to push the jack back under the butt but that happens only when the key is released fully. What's however interesting is what happens in between. I think the shape of the but is such that it allows for the jack to start going back under the butt, only very slightly, and since there's slight friction, a push to the key will be able to throw the hammer, albeit with a very low velocity, and despite the key feeling light because it's not really pushing.

Yamaha knew that, so they have implemented the software logic to detect the degree to which the key is released and thus will not allow for loud note issue for most of the release path. For instance, if you release the key halfway and repeat, there will be a quiet note produced, although the key is light to press and can be pressed with a very high velocity. It's very realistic in that regard. The bad stuff begins with the very last millimeter of release I believe where the hammer is reengaged depends on regulation but it happens not exactly at release but a tiny bit before that. Yamaha decided to play safe and assume the hammer has been reengaged say 1mm before top. Why? Because otherwise they would have gone into another type of issue. Imagine you've release the key to 1mm before top position and hammer is reengaged due to the regulation. However the software expects that the key is released fully before counting it as a hit. As a result you will feel the whole weight of the hammer, you will throw it and the software will say: nah, hammer was not reengaged, I won't generate a note That would be even weirder than the loud note issue. Yamaha tried to find the balance between various issues, workarounds and regulation tolerances and I think the loud note issue was the less nasty of the possible things that can go wrong.

Thanks - appreciated. All clear now.

Greg.

“....the jack is pushing a piece called butt onto which the shank is glued. The escapement causes the jack to escape the butt.....”

I’m familiar with the shank, but what is this piece called the butt?
Is the butt unique to the upright?

AnyTimeX upright actions uses optical sensors and a shutter positioned on the hammer shank (similar to the NV10).

Here's a shot of the action sample. Note that the optical sensor rail mounted above the action is not present in this shot.



Kind regards,
James
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