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NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance *changed* with update?
#2814494 02/13/19 10:17 AM
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I'm not quite sure what's going on just yet, but switching firmware between 1.02(e?) and 1.02f, I've noticed that in the latest public firmware (1.02f), I no longer have any sympathetic resonance, either in Pianist or in Sound Mode.

An easy test is to first establish a baseline by striking a single key (e.g, C4) staccato.
Then, *silently* hold down some resonant keys, such as a C1 and C2 octave. Play C4 staccato again.
Do you hear any difference between the two?

As a serial sustain-pedal abuser, this escaped my attention for a long time. But testing this morning, I noticed that with 1.02f, all sympathetic resonance is gone. I checked in MidiMonitor, and I think that the "fix" for the bug I submitted about inadvertent double-strikes of MIDI velocity 1, results in the tone generator no longer knowing that a key is being held down silently, so it doesn't know to trigger the sympathetic resonance associated with that key.

Is anyone else experiencing this, or is it just me?

I have some sample MP3s and MidiMonitor files I'll link shortly.


Last edited by Piano World; 02/14/19 12:15 PM. Reason: small change in title, requested by OP

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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814500 02/13/19 10:51 AM
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Interesting - now that you mention this I checked, and for me this is not even an effect that I can reliably produce on the firmware 1.0.2 the piano came with! I.e. sometimes the resonance occurs, sometimes it doesn't, same keys and same way of hitting them... It would be interesting to know whether this in general is something that more people are affected by.

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814568 02/13/19 12:49 PM
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I long ago decided that 1.0.2e was vastly superior to 1.0.2f... but I didn't test long enough to determine why -- different EQ upfront seems obvious. Beyond that, I know that 1.0.2e, for me, has a magical living sound that 1.0.2f has managed to slay.

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814571 02/13/19 12:54 PM
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Isn't there a menu setting that controls the strength of the "string resonance" effect?

Could it be set to "0", by default, in the new software release?


. Charles
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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814581 02/13/19 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

An easy test is to first establish a baseline by striking a single key (e.g, C4) staccato.
Then, *silently* hold down some resonant keys, such as a C1 and C2 octave. Play C4 staccato again.
Do you hear any difference between the two?


I don't hear any difference between the two on 1.0.2e with your method -- if I hold down C1 and C2 *silently* nothing happens. However if I press them down lightly so that they initially *ring*, even after they die down, if I press C4, then I hear the resonance.

I believe the behavior is different from my CA98 (which I had updated to 1.0.2f).

However, I'm not sure if holding down keys silently without any initial sound is a real piano technique?

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814599 02/13/19 01:30 PM
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The sympathetic resonance is definitely still there, just as it was before. But as navindra writes, it does not work if you press the key in question silently. Or to be more precise: It does not work if you press the key so softly, that no note on midi message is generated at all. Because no note on message means, for the sound engine, that the key was never pressed, ergo no resonances for that key.

And with the default "Minimum Touch" setting of 1, the only note on midi message that does not generate a tone (i.e. that is silent) is velocity 1. So if you want to do a silent key press but still generate a note on message (so that you get resonances on that key), you need to exactly hit velocity 1. Which is essentially impossible.

Which means that to hear the resonances in your experiment, you have two options:

Either press the key softly but non-silent and wait for it to decay naturally. Then staccato hit the other key and hear the resonance.

Or go into the VT and raise the Minimum Touch to increase the window for silent play. Whatever value you select for Minimum Touch defines the highest velocity that still produces no tone. So for example if you set it to 10, then velocities 1-10 are silent and 11+ produce a tone.
That way, to do a silent key press that still produces a note on message, you now no longer need to exactly hit velocity 1, but any velocity from 1-10 will do (or whatever Minimum Touch you select, with 20 as the max).

This behavior is not new, it has been like that from the beginning (I think we discussed this way back in the NV10 thread and concluded it's an artifact of how the hammer sensors work).

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
JoBert #2814630 02/13/19 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by navindra

I don't hear any difference between the two on 1.0.2e with your method -- if I hold down C1 and C2 *silently* nothing happens. However if I press them down lightly so that they initially *ring*, even after they die down, if I press C4, then I hear the resonance.

However, I'm not sure if holding down keys silently without any initial sound is a real piano technique?


I don't know if it's a real TECHNIQUE, but it's a real EFFECT on an acoustic, and one that works on the prior firmware for me (lifting the damper allows the string to ring freely, regardless of a hammer strike) smile

Originally Posted by JoBert
It does not work if you press the key so softly, that no note on midi message is generated at all. Because no note on message means, for the sound engine, that the key was never pressed, ergo no resonances for that key.

Hi JoBert,

I may need to test this more thoroughly when I'm home...but looking through the MIDI messages, 1.02f may no longer register Note-On velocity 1 with silent keypresses (as a fix for the double-strike issue). Are you seeing this?

Also, remember from prior discussions that completely soft keypresses may not register a note-on, but *moderately* soft (yet still silent) keypresses do. Can you still achieve this with 1.02f, and when you do, does it trigger a sympathetic resonance response in other keys? I've flashed between 1.02e and f several times and confirmed that silently holding a note works 100% of the time in e, but not so in f. It also worked on the MP11 and every other digital piano I've ever tried with sympathetic resonance support.

Unfortunately I can't view the MidiMonitor (.mmon) files at work to confirm whether I'm striking the keys with enough velocity to register a silent (velocity 1) strike in E but not in F, but I'll update when I have the chance to review.

Originally Posted by JoBert
This behavior is not new, it has been like that from the beginning (I think we discussed this way back in the NV10 thread and concluded it's an artifact of how the hammer sensors work).


Well, technically the hammer sensors are fully capable of supporting this, as it's a function of the key-off sensor, which is set above the lower bound of hammer travel while a key is partially depressed, right?



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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814702 02/13/19 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I may need to test this more thoroughly when I'm home...but looking through the MIDI messages, 1.02f may no longer register Note-On velocity 1 with silent keypresses (as a fix for the double-strike issue). Are you seeing this?

It is difficult to trigger velocity 1 but it is possible. Almost impossible with Touch Light, a bit easier with Heavy+. But mostly, soft key presses don't generate a note on at all. TBH, I'm not 100% sure that this is the same as before. I think it was discussed before but I can't find the posts, so I might imagine it. It is possible that with an older firmware it was "easier" to trigger velocity 1.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Also, remember from prior discussions that completely soft keypresses may not register a note-on, but *moderately* soft (yet still silent) keypresses do. Can you still achieve this with 1.02f, and when you do, does it trigger a sympathetic resonance response in other keys?

Yes. If you press the key in a way that a note on is generated (even if that is very quiet or even silent), then that note will ring in sympathetic resonance.
You can test this easily if you raise Minimum Touch to 20. Now all velocities from 1-20 will be silent, so it is relatively easy to press a key silently while still triggering a note on. You can then hear the resonances of that tone if you play other keys.

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
JoBert #2814724 02/13/19 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
You can test this easily if you raise Minimum Touch to 20. Now all velocities from 1-20 will be silent, so it is relatively easy to press a key silently while still triggering a note on. You can then hear the resonances of that tone if you play other keys.


Thank Jo. I'll give this a try when I get home. I'm honestly not too worried about it if the sympathetic resonance works when a key has sounded (since that's when it matters, pianistically). It's an interesting artifact if note-on velocity 1 is harder to achieve though, since that may have downstream consequences such as controlling other MIDI instruments.


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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814846 02/13/19 09:19 PM
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OK, so I've re-tested, with some interesting results:

1. Navindra and JoBert are correct, in that 1.02f DOES still have string resonance, but what they may not have noticed is that the trigger has changed. As they point out, with 1.02f, you MUST have a key depressed AND have it sound out, before sympathetic resonance will work.

2. The behavior IS different (and IMO more limited) between firmwares. With 1.02e, "silent" keypresses will ALWAYS register a MIDI Note-On with velocity of 1. The Note-On event is tied to the first (of two) hammer velocity sensors, and not the note-off hammer sensor. The velocity sensor that triggers the note-on is the sensor that is positioned just under the let-off. If you press lightly, as soon as you pass the let-off, you get a Note-On velocity 1, every time, 100%. Once the note-on is registered, sympathetic resonance on that key is activated, whether a note is sounded or not.

3.On 1.02f, this behavior completely changes. Pressing the key just past the let-off no longer registers a Note-On event at all. In fact, you can't register a Note-On event unless you activate both velocity sensors with a high enough velocity to sound a note (I can hit velocity once in a while). Pressing a key light enough to not register a note, results in no MIDI Note-On triggered at all. Thus, the string sympathetic resonance won't activate for that note.

This means that on my piano, with 1.02f, string resonance is a bit "crippled, as it won't trigger in the same way as an acoustic. Pianistically, this is no big deal, I'm not playing any nouveau repertoire that calls for silent keypresses, after all smile But, the resonance behavior HAS changed between firmwares, and IMO it's a minor regression, and less realistic. On an acoustic, you should get resonance as soon as you start to depress the key (as the damper will lift), regardless of whether you end up playing a note on that key.

This also means to me that ideally, Kawai should be using the separate Key-off hammer sensor, and not the velocity sensors, to trigger resonance activation. In this respect it also makes little sense to have note-on triggered a different way (high velocity strike) from note-off (lifting of key fully) if Note-On is the only available trigger for string resonance.

More of an interesting observation than a real problem, I guess smile

But I'm interested in hearing if the behavior is different for those of you running 1.02e and 1.02f....


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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814899 02/14/19 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

More of an interesting observation than a real problem, I guess smile

But I'm interested in hearing if the behavior is different for those of you running 1.02e and 1.02f....


Thanks for the information.

Do Novus owners have the option to choose what firmware generation they want to use, and if so, which one are you going to choose?

What else besides the inadvertent double-strikes does the "f" update address?

God Bless,
David


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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
navindra #2814931 02/14/19 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm not quite sure what's going on just yet, but switching firmware between 1.02(e?) and 1.02f, I've noticed that in the latest public firmware (1.02f), I no longer have any sympathetic resonance, either in Pianist or in Sound Mode.

An easy test is to first establish a baseline by striking a single key (e.g, C4) staccato.
Then, *silently* hold down some resonant keys, such as a C1 and C2 octave. Play C4 staccato again.
Do you hear any difference between the two?
[...]

Is anyone else experiencing this, or is it just me?

Can confirm. String resonance in 1.02f is broken. It doesn't work as described in the manual.

Originally Posted by navindra
However, I'm not sure if holding down keys silently without any initial sound is a real piano technique?

It is, e.g. in Mikrokosmos No. 102.

(For those who wonder how to determine the installed firmware version: switch the piano on with pedals 2 and 3 pressed down.)

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814940 02/14/19 03:52 AM
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Fascinating. Never saw those diamond notes before. Well, I repro the problem in 1.0.2e. Gombessa, are you sure that's the version you tested?

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2814963 02/14/19 06:22 AM
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I wonder if using damper sensors would significantly contribute to increase the overall acoustic piano simulation. The NV10 has a damper mechanism, but it is not being fully exploited as the dampers are just passive weights since there are no damper/damper rail sensors. With such sensors in place, the simulation of the pedal would be based on its actual mechanical operation. The same reasoning applies to the the mechanical effect of a key on its damper - with this approach the limitations related to note-off velocity detection and silent keys would not exist.

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
trebb #2815023 02/14/19 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by trebb
Can confirm. String resonance in 1.02f is broken. It doesn't work as described in the manual.

Respectfully, but I would like to elucidate this, before the masses come trampling in with cries of woe, claiming that "the NV10 doesn't have resonances anymore!". crycursing

Resonances on the NV10 are not broken. cool They still work fine, just like they used to before - except for a tiny detail that is absolutely irrelevant for the vast (very vast) majority of piano repertoire.

And even about this tiny detail it is unclear if it is caused by the 1.02f firmware alone.


So what is this "tiny detail"?

Obviously, sympathetic resonances are only created in strings where the damper is lifted. As with any digital piano, the NV10's sound engine only considers the damper lifted (for a given tone) if the "Note On" MIDI message for that tone was triggered (to my knowledge there are no "damper up / damper down" MIDI messages for single tones, those are subsumed in the "note on / note off" messages, but please correct me if I'm wrong).
So quite correctly, the sound engine only generates resonances in a string where a "Note On" message has signaled that the damper is lifted (and no "Note Off" message was received, or it was received but the sustain pedal is still down).
So: No "Note On" -> no resonances. Nothing surprising so far. All DPs that generate resonances work like that.

The "problem" with the action and sensors in the NV10 (which are BTW the same as in Kawai's ATX silent system for acoustic grands) is, that it is possible to press a key without generating a "Note On" message. Or in other words, as far as this digital piano is concerned, it is possible to silently press a key without lifting its damper. This is of course impossible with an acoustic piano, but with the NV10, from the sound engine's point of view, it is possible to press the key without the engine noticing it (so it doesn't know the damper is supposed to be lifted).
And not only is it possible, but it is actually quite likely, i.e. if you press a key silently, it is very likely that you do indeed not generate a "Note On" message (not even with velocity 1, which would indicate a silent note). So it is actually quite difficult on the NV10 to silently press the keys but still generate a "Note On" message, which would be necessary to then hear the resonances of that silent note.

But as I said above, for the very vast majority of piano music, this is totally irrelevant. Simply because pressing a key silently (without creating a tone) does not occur in this music. It does occur only in a very small minority of modern pieces (I'm sure folks will correct me on this smile). So unless you play pieces from this small sub-group, you are simply not affected by this behavior. The resonances work just like they are supposed to.

I also said above that it is unclear if that "problem" was even caused by the 1.02f firmware alone. Maybe it was already inherent in how the action and sensors work and the new firmware simply exposes this on more pianos than before?

I've mentioned that I thought that I remembered that I had seen this same behavior before I upgraded to 1.02f. But then I became unsure when Gombessa's experiments showed that for him the behavior is not present with 1.02e but only 1.02f. But navindra in turn confirms that he already has this behavior with 1.02e (and presumably also would have had it with even earlier firmware versions). So now I'm wondering, if not my recollection was correct and I too did already see this before, with my piano.

And now I'm speculating: Maybe this is somehow related to the double-striking problem that also affects only some NV10s? Is it a coincidence that Gombessa's piano can create double-strikes but also makes it easier to play silent notes with velocity 1 (at least with 1.02e), while my piano doesn't do double-strikes, but (if my recollection is correct) also makes it more difficult to play silent notes with velocity 1 and most silent notes simply have no "Note On" at all, even on 1.02e? (And navindra's piano would then also be one of those).
I can imagine that there is a fine threshold in regulation and/or firmware parameters. Too far on one side, and you get nice "velocity 1" silent notes, but also more double-strikes. Too far on the other side, and you don't have double strikes anymore, but now most silent notes don't have a "Note On" at all anymore. And the sweet spot in the middle is very difficult to find, as already tiny discrepancies can have a huge effect (so even environmental changes like temperature or humidity could have an effect if they cause a tiny fractional change of the sensor alignment, or something like that).
And with that hypothesis in mind, I can also imagine that the parameters in 1.02f were indeed modified a bit, to slightly shift the balance towards the "no double strikes" side. For people like navindra (and assumably myself) this doesn't make any difference, as we already had the same behavior with 1.02e and before, but for people like Gombessa, the behavior then does indeed change from 1.02e to 1.02f.
If that hypothesis is correct, then yes, the 1.02f firmware changes did have an effect, but not in the sense that it "broke the resonances". The change simply shifted more pianos into the "no double strikes" group than before. But resonances do of course still work for these pianos, just like the do, and did, for the pianos that were already in the same "no double strikes" group with 1.02e and before.

But yes, if you regularly play pieces that require you to press and hold down keys silently, for their resonances to bloom, then the NV10 is probably not the right piano for you (personally, I don't think any digital piano is right for you then, not even the fully modeled ones). But that was already true before the 1.02f firmware version.

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
Gombessa #2815036 02/14/19 09:14 AM
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There's a piece by an obscure Bulgarian composer (whose name I don't even remember and I don't like at all, nor the piece itself) and that piece requires that you silently press a few octaves with your left elbow and then play some stuff above wink Just so you know, I mean. That would be unplayable! A huge loss for the avant-garde music lovers purchasing NV10!

P.S. Ohh, there's a workaround!!! You invite your guests. Before they arrive you press the keys with your elbow. They come, you shout "it's open, come in!" and of course keep your elbow pressed, not handshaking them, it's an avant-garde thing after all. Until they come, hopefully the sustain would have finished and you can play the piece.

P.P.S Or just put a weighted stick on the keys prior to performance wink

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/14/19 09:17 AM.

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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
CyberGene #2815041 02/14/19 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
There's a piece by an obscure Bulgarian composer (whose name I don't even remember and I don't like at all, nor the piece itself) and that piece requires that you silently press a few octaves with your left elbow and then play some stuff above

Hmmm. I think I know that piece. My son used to play it often, before he even started with lessons! grin

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
JoBert #2815043 02/14/19 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There's a piece by an obscure Bulgarian composer (whose name I don't even remember and I don't like at all, nor the piece itself) and that piece requires that you silently press a few octaves with your left elbow and then play some stuff above

Hmmm. I think I know that piece. My son used to play it often, before he even started with lessons! grin


A genius! You should've notated it. Now we lost it frown


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Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
JoBert #2815073 02/14/19 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by trebb
Can confirm. String resonance in 1.02f is broken. It doesn't work as described in the manual.

Respectfully, but I would like to elucidate this, before the masses come trampling in with cries of woe, claiming that "the NV10 doesn't have resonances anymore!". crycursing

Resonances on the NV10 are not broken. cool They still work fine, just like they used to before - except for a tiny detail that is absolutely irrelevant for the vast (very vast) majority of piano repertoire.

Quoting the manual, page 107:
Quote
Demonstrating String Resonance
To experience the string resonance phenomenon, gently hold down the ‘C’ key as shown in the illustration below, then play (strike and release quickly) any of the keys marked with a  symbol. In addition to the sound of each note played, it should also be possible to hear the strings of the first ‘C’ key resonating ‘sympathetically’, thus demonstrating String Resonance.

Or, as Gombessa put it,
Originally Posted by Gombessa
An easy test is to first establish a baseline by striking a single key (e.g, C4) staccato. Then, *silently* hold down some resonant keys, such as a C1 and C2 octave. Play C4 staccato again.
Do you hear any difference between the two?

This is how it used to work (with firmware 1.02c, in my case). It has stopped working after the upgrade to 1.02f. I wouldn't call this "not broken".

Re: NV10 v1.02f - sympathetic resonance gone with update?
trebb #2815076 02/14/19 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by trebb
This is how it used to work (with firmware 1.02c, in my case). It has stopped working after the upgrade to 1.02f. I wouldn't call this "not broken".

It is "broken" for this demonstration method. But it is not broken for actually playing the piano (except for a certain few pieces). Personally, I only care for the latter. If I would need to demonstrate the feature (not that has every happened), I would just play the keys in question very quietly (not silent), wait a few seconds for the decay, and then proceed with the demonstration.

Last edited by JoBert; 02/14/19 10:12 AM.
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