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Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? #2792156
12/16/18 08:36 PM
12/16/18 08:36 PM
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Visalia Offline OP
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I'd never have thought that root inversions occur so much more frequently in popular music, than first or second inversions. A lot of classic examples come to mind, like 'In the Mood' by Glen Miller... where there's a root inversion major chord played. Does anyone know any good examples?

Take this for example. The opening lyrics sung as "look at me", are a 2nd inversion minor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-45bf2QR24

And this song starts with a descending 2nd inversion major.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKvNtAVZyOc

I want to do this to train my ear better to major and minor inversions. It's the first and second inversions that I seem to struggle to tell apart. I've no problem with the root inversions. Often when I'm playing a bunch of notes, I might play a major (or minor) arpeggio without even realising it. It's strange, in that I'm good enough to be able to play what I hear, but yet I struggle with knowing what I'm playing.

These are good examples of songs that I've come across, where you can hear many inversions played clearly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFhJRTdmviA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYImCAp2OcU

Thank you





Last edited by Visalia; 12/16/18 08:39 PM.
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Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2792465
12/17/18 06:08 PM
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My similar efforts have been with the 48 inversions of the min6 chord (aka half-diminished).

AFAIK, there is no official root position (‘cause it depends whether you consider it a min6 or a half-diminished). So instead, I’ve labeled these 4 inversions “top loaded,” “middle loaded,” “bottom-loaded” and “open” (“loaded” referring to where the chord’s 2 whole-step-intervalled notes are positioned).

There’s significant compositional power in the 2 “adjacent” notes’ positioning (e.g., they can be spread open to a maj3rd interval for smooth movement to one of the sister min6 chords and repeat to taste).

But, yes, getting to the point where the desired, on-the-fly labeling of these 48 inversions no longer required significant mental distraction took months.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2793674
12/21/18 04:10 AM
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Simon_b Online content
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Hi

The half-diminished chord is not the same as a min 6 chord.
A half-diminished is a min7 b5 chord.

So Cm7b5 has the individual notes C Eb F# Bb, where as Cm6 has C Eb G A.

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
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Hammond XB1

Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2793675
12/21/18 04:13 AM
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Sorry, my error there, in a Cm7b5 chord the b5 would be Gb not F# :-)

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Casio CTK-7200
Hammond XB1

Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2793718
12/21/18 08:28 AM
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Why you call it "root inversion"? It is called the "Root position".

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2793875
12/21/18 04:03 PM
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They are the same chord in a different sense. C half diminished is the same as Eb-6.

I've read that old timers referred to the half diminished chord as the minor 6 over the 6 in the bass.

Instead of iv V I, you have a ii V I, if you change the minor 6 to a half diminished.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Cudo] #2793891
12/21/18 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cudo
Why you call it "root inversion"? It is called the "Root position".
Ah yeah... fascinating

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: krewster] #2793895
12/21/18 04:34 PM
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Visalia Offline OP
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Originally Posted by krewster

My similar efforts have been with the 48 inversions of the min6 chord (aka half-diminished).

AFAIK, there is no official root position (‘cause it depends whether you consider it a min6 or a half-diminished). So instead, I’ve labeled these 4 inversions “top loaded,” “middle loaded,” “bottom-loaded” and “open” (“loaded” referring to where the chord’s 2 whole-step-intervalled notes are positioned).

There’s significant compositional power in the 2 “adjacent” notes’ positioning (e.g., they can be spread open to a maj3rd interval for smooth movement to one of the sister min6 chords and repeat to taste).

But, yes, getting to the point where the desired, on-the-fly labeling of these 48 inversions no longer required significant mental distraction took months.

You know what, I'd even be interested in getting a a few good examples of arpeggios of that chord too!!

Last edited by Visalia; 12/21/18 04:35 PM.
Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2794043
12/22/18 04:16 AM
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Good point jjo, if I'd read krewster's post properly in the first place it would have helped!

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Casio CTK-7200
Hammond XB1

Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2794332
12/22/18 08:47 PM
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Nothing at all so?

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2794377
12/23/18 01:46 AM
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Visalia, I’ve not been using the min6 chord in arppegiated fashion but, rather, just block chorded. To hear one example of its utility, try RH soloing over a LH blues pattern, not with single notes but, rather, with the middle-loaded inversion (e.g., Eb-G-A-C) of these 4-noted min6 chords. So, e.g., for a C blues, the RH could focus on the five min6 chords “whose” lowest notes happen to delineate the F# pentatonic scale (of which Eb-G-A-C is one). If this seems new, then maybe better dumb-down the LH at first to simply C-Bb, F-Eb, G-F.

Simon b, your initial post seems to well illustrate how the half-diminished vs. min6 nomenclature “debate” (about which I first heard from listening to Barry Harris on youtube) can be confusing. Not knowing for sure why he disavows use of the label “half-diminished,” I worked out my own reasonings:

-that such label encourages use of only the open-voiced inversion, which I find not pretty-sounding while all 3 of the other inversions are prettier (in the soulful sense) and have tons of uses. Simple examples being (e.g., in the key of C) that the F min6 and Abmin6 chords both resolve to the tonic more soulfully and simply (aka chromatically) than the B half-diminished (hope, rather than making complete sense here, that debate can be sparked); and

-that the open position (e.g., B-D-F-A) doesn’t well visually trigger the idea that you can access one of its sister min6 chords by chromatically closing the extremities to C and Ab, whereas the other 3 inversions each have two notes lying at a whole step interval which are readily spreadable apart chromatically to access one of the sister min6 chords (creating another whole step interval which is chromatically spreadable to access another sister, etc., etc.). So with only a few chromatic movements, you’ve run through (e.g., Cmin6, Ebmin6, Gbmin6 and Amin6), supplying to your RH solo maniac desires, the full arsenal of key scales associated with the C-Eb-Gb-A diminished chord.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, so as to enthuse appropriate-leveled players to take the next step.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: krewster] #2794455
12/23/18 09:20 AM
12/23/18 09:20 AM
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Visalia Offline OP
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Originally Posted by krewster

Visalia, I’ve not been using the min6 chord in arppegiated fashion but, rather, just block chorded. To hear one example of its utility, try RH soloing over a LH blues pattern, not with single notes but, rather, with the middle-loaded inversion (e.g., Eb-G-A-C) of these 4-noted min6 chords. So, e.g., for a C blues, the RH could focus on the five min6 chords “whose” lowest notes happen to delineate the F# pentatonic scale (of which Eb-G-A-C is one). If this seems new, then maybe better dumb-down the LH at first to simply C-Bb, F-Eb, G-F.

Simon b, your initial post seems to well illustrate how the half-diminished vs. min6 nomenclature “debate” (about which I first heard from listening to Barry Harris on youtube) can be confusing. Not knowing for sure why he disavows use of the label “half-diminished,” I worked out my own reasonings:

-that such label encourages use of only the open-voiced inversion, which I find not pretty-sounding while all 3 of the other inversions are prettier (in the soulful sense) and have tons of uses. Simple examples being (e.g., in the key of C) that the F min6 and Abmin6 chords both resolve to the tonic more soulfully and simply (aka chromatically) than the B half-diminished (hope, rather than making complete sense here, that debate can be sparked); and

-that the open position (e.g., B-D-F-A) doesn’t well visually trigger the idea that you can access one of its sister min6 chords by chromatically closing the extremities to C and Ab, whereas the other 3 inversions each have two notes lying at a whole step interval which are readily spreadable apart chromatically to access one of the sister min6 chords (creating another whole step interval which is chromatically spreadable to access another sister, etc., etc.). So with only a few chromatic movements, you’ve run through (e.g., Cmin6, Ebmin6, Gbmin6 and Amin6), supplying to your RH solo maniac desires, the full arsenal of key scales associated with the C-Eb-Gb-A diminished chord.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, so as to enthuse appropriate-leveled players to take the next step.

Could this thread have gone any more off topic.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2794633
12/23/18 06:00 PM
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Guilty as charged...while the initial suggestion could remain useful to the expressed concern:

To accelerate the process of easily distinguishing inversions on-the-fly, how about trying your own made-up labels less abstract than “1st and 2nd” and more indicative of the possibilities from that position (a major chord’s 1st inversion focuses on the area within the keyscale where movement among minor, major and suspended alternatives can be created, while its 2nd inversion focuses on the area of the keyscale where movement among major, augmented and vi/VI chords can be created).

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2803674
01/18/19 06:16 PM
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There has to be some well known common examples!

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2812369
02/08/19 02:10 PM
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These inversions seem more rare than what I would have thought. But you do find them in places.

From 0:29-0:35 you can hear some nice arpeggiated major chords:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO4iB_ROp6w

Last edited by Visalia; 02/08/19 02:11 PM.
Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2812424
02/08/19 04:19 PM
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Visalia: From the jazz field, the chordal instruments are almost always playing inversions because we leave the root note to the bass player. This is what is referred to as "rootless voicings". In jazz we don't even speak of inversions. Indeed, if you listen to a jazz combo where they are playing either a minor 6 or a half diminished chord, they will almost always be playing an "inversion," as I said, because they leave the root note to the bass player.

I can't really speak to what goes on in pop music.

P.S. to Krewster: Your theory about why Barry Harris likes to refer to the minor 6 is a bit off. The F-6 chord resolves to C minor. It would be D half diminished (same chord), that resolves to C-, not B half diminished.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: jjo] #2814107
02/12/19 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo
Indeed, if you listen to a jazz combo where they are playing either a minor 6 or a half diminished chord. Barry Harris likes to refer to the minor 6 is a bit off. The F-6 chord resolves to C minor. It would be D half diminished (same chord), that resolves to C-, not B half diminished.


What's with the need to start talking about rocket science? I simply asking for examples of melodies that involve inversions maj/min triads. If you can not think of any, then no need to post.

Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: krewster] #2814110
02/12/19 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by krewster

Guilty as charged...while the initial suggestion could remain useful to the expressed concern:

Guilty as charged once again!
Originally Posted by krewster

To accelerate the process of easily distinguishing inversions on-the-fly, how about trying your own made-up labels less abstract than “1st and 2nd” and more indicative of the possibilities from that position (a major chord’s 1st inversion focuses on the area within the keyscale where movement among minor, major and suspended alternatives can be created, while its 2nd inversion focuses on the area of the keyscale where movement among major, augmented and vi/VI chords can be created).


This could be sarcasm for all I know.

Last edited by Visalia; 02/12/19 03:12 PM.
Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2814391
02/13/19 04:36 AM
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Hi Visalia

Originally Posted by Visalia

What's with the need to start talking about rocket science? I simply asking for examples of melodies that involve inversions maj/min triads. If you can not think of any, then no need to post.


As a large percentage of all songs ever written in popular music have maj and/or min triads, I don't know what the point of your question is. I could list hundreds of songs here for you, which would be pointless.

Also, why don't you try being slightly more grateful that people bother to reply you? Most posters on here try and be helpful, and frequently all they get in reply from you is sarcastic one-liners because they haven't answered the question in the way you wanted it to be answered. But as I've pointed out above I'm not sure you know yourself.


Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Casio CTK-7200
Hammond XB1

Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Good examples of 1st/2nd inversion Min/Maj chords? [Re: Visalia] #2814411
02/13/19 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Visalia
[quote=jjo] I simply asking for examples of melodies that involve inversions maj/min triads.


Take The "A" Train" Duke Ellington. 1st inversion of tonic chord.

[Linked Image]


"Air Mail Special" Benny Goodman Root position of tonic chord.[Linked Image]


"Airegin" Sonny Rollins 2nd inversion of tonic chord.
[Linked Image]


...want more?

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