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Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2808506
01/30/19 06:53 AM
01/30/19 06:53 AM
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I also decided to experiment with a piano keyboard. And today I brought home such a keyboard.
Now I will decide which sensors to put and where to put them. In the meantime, I am satisfied.

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Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2808513
01/30/19 07:15 AM
01/30/19 07:15 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Ohh, that's exciting, yours looks more preserved than mine, although missing two hammers but on the other hand it's 88 keys whereas mine is 85 frown Who's the manufacturer of the action? And what piano is it from?


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2808529
01/30/19 07:39 AM
01/30/19 07:39 AM
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Not enough 4 hammers. But it's not a problem.
The keyboard of the piano which was called: "красный октябрь" (translation: red October). On the quality I say nothing.


Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: amad23] #2808549
01/30/19 08:51 AM
01/30/19 08:51 AM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by amad23
The keyboard of the piano which was called: "красный октябрь" (translation: red October).


I've seen one of those in Montana before. It has a novel magneto-hydrodynamic action. Should be very quiet.


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Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2808556
01/30/19 09:09 AM
01/30/19 09:09 AM
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Looks like an exciting project amad23!

Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: Gombessa] #2808558
01/30/19 09:12 AM
01/30/19 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by amad23
The keyboard of the piano which was called: "красный октябрь" (translation: red October).


I've seen one of those in Montana before. It has a novel magneto-hydrodynamic action. Should be very quiet.

I am curious about the action. Does it use some magnetic device to return the keys or hammer mechanism to the resting position? There are uprights with such design. I do not get the hydrodynamic part, though....

Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: arc7urus] #2808630
01/30/19 12:56 PM
01/30/19 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
I do not get the hydrodynamic part, though....

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099810/quotes?item=qt3571551

Last edited by 90125; 01/30/19 01:03 PM. Reason: better permalink
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2808642
01/30/19 01:38 PM
01/30/19 01:38 PM
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Sorry arc7urus, just a poor attempt at humor smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: Gombessa] #2808727
01/30/19 05:23 PM
01/30/19 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Sorry arc7urus, just a poor attempt at humor smile

:-)

Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814034
02/12/19 11:28 AM
02/12/19 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, all current hybrid pianos use a stop rail on the shanks and not the hammers (since they don't even have real hammers, they use weights instead). When working on my DIY controller with real action and real hammer heads ...leads to another problem: stopping the shank presents a shock to the shank itself because the hammer weight will bend the shank. I was wondering whether the shanks would eventually break after such an impact which is not observed in a normal acoustic piano where it's the hammer that is stopped and the shank is thus not experiencing bends. My piano technician said shanks are made from pear wood which is very durable and should withstand that but let's see. It's currently one of a few "fear" areas I have with my DIY controller. On the other hand Kawai and Yamaha apparently use the same approach

Two quick thoughts to reduce shank shock on your DIY controller. These could reduce sound as well:

1. Have a mechanical engineer or physics friend give quick recommendation on ideal placement of stop rail to minimize stress on shanks. I suppose absent that study, stop rail closer to the hammer would reduce leverage but face higher acceleration.

2. You can cushion your stop rail. I have seen similar schemes with several layers of foam, rubber, silicone etc., sometimes starting with least dense and more dense towards the rail. Neoprene rubber might be an easy place to start. The foams and rubbers will deteriorate with contact, time, and exposure to light/air/time. Some adhesives will destroy some of the materials on contact. And you would need to think about preventing foamy bits from getting all over the place. Maybe just repadding the rail periodically would be good maintenance.

Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814042
02/12/19 11:46 AM
02/12/19 11:46 AM
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I don't think I get what you mean in point 1. It assumes there's a specific ideal point for stopping the shank and I don't agree. In my opinion there's no magic point, the stop rail needs to be as close to the hammer as possible. This will minimize the effect of hammer weight inertia bending the rest of the shank.

As to cushioning, of course I've put a thick foam layer on the stop rail, otherwise it would have been a DIY vibraphone laugh I found one that's very thick and seems very durable, I like how it cushions the shanks so far. The longer use when finished will eventually show if it's enough.

BTW, I have redesigned everything with SMD elements, I've designed all three types of PCB-s (small sensor ones for each sensor, the comparator ones - each one managing 5 keys and one for the controller). I've received all elements, and the PCB-s are manufactured, waiting for them to arrive this or the other week and will then need to find some time to solder everything.

I've never worked with SMD elements and my research on the Internet concluded I should 0603 sized resistors which now seems like so tiny! But I have good eyes, steady hand and a good set of very tiny tweezers so hopefully all that won't turn into a nightmare for soldering smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/12/19 11:56 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814055
02/12/19 12:10 PM
02/12/19 12:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've never worked with SMD elements and my research on the Internet concluded I should 0603 sized resistors which now seems like so tiny! But I have good eyes, steady hand and a good set of very tiny tweezers so hopefully all that won't turn into a nightmare for soldering smile

Off-topic, but you really should get an SMD rework station if you want to work with SMDs. Otherwise it will become a nightmare!

EDIT: Well since this is the CyberGene DIY thread, I guess it isn't off-topic, after all! laugh


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814056
02/12/19 12:18 PM
02/12/19 12:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,743
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
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Well, I recently bought a cheap soldering station off Amazon, one which was actually praised a lot and was even recommended as the best budget soldering station on a website... It comes with various tips - needle one, not-so-sharp needle, flat, very wide flat, etc. Not sure if it qualifies specifically for SMD work, I'm new to all this DIY stuff, but I assume it is? (just realized the only thing that I'm not self taught in is also the only thing I've never actually worked/practiced/hobbyed, nor even wanted to - Physics smile )


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814061
02/12/19 12:28 PM
02/12/19 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, I recently bought a cheap soldering station off Amazon, one which was actually praised a lot and was even recommended as the best budget soldering station on a website... It comes with various tips - needle one, not-so-sharp needle, flat, very wide flat, etc. Not sure if it qualifies specifically for SMD work, I'm new to all this DIY stuff, but I assume it is?

Rework stations range from around $50 to $2000. This for example is a low-end one. (Realize this is in US, but I'm sure you could find something similar on Amazon.de or the like.)

Originally Posted by CyberGene
(just realized the only thing that I'm not self taught in is also the only thing I've never actually worked/practiced/hobbyed, nor even wanted to - Physics smile )

Physics? What is your thinking here? I used to work in physics at a US national lab myself, but I don't understand how that relates to SMDs smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814067
02/12/19 12:37 PM
02/12/19 12:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
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What I meant is this entire initiative of mine - the DIY controller - involves only stuff that's entirely new to me laugh I mean, I didn't even know how grand actions worked before I started, I haven't ever made anything mechanical with my hands besides assembling IKEA furniture, I am a self-taught pianist, I haven't worked with electronics, let alone designing PCB-s, etc. and even in my day time job - software engineering - I am self-taught, so even if that helps a bit at least with the code, I've never worked stuff like controller programming, etc. I mean, from some angle it seems like a very lame and noob endeavor on my side laugh I'm learning from scratch so many things... My initial PCB design didn't include pull-up resistors at all, for instance, since I didn't know what that mean... I had to learn that the hard way. On the other hand this is what makes it so sweet smile Even if I fail, I would have learned so many new stuff on the way. And then there's my physics education which isn't helping me with anything on the project wink That's what I meant.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/12/19 12:44 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814074
02/12/19 12:44 PM
02/12/19 12:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
What I meant is this all initiative of mine - the DIY controller - involves only stuff that's entirely new to me laugh I mean, I didn't even know how grand actions work before I started it, I haven't ever made anything mechanical with my hands besides assembling IKEA furniture, I am a self-taught pianist, I haven't worked with electronics, let alone designing PCB-s, etc. and even in my day time job - software engineering - I am self-taught, so even if that helps a bit at least with the code, I've never worked stuff like controller programming, etc. I mean, from some angle it seems like a very lame and noob endeavor on my side laugh I'm learning from scratch so many things... My initial PCB design didn't include pull-up resistors at all, for instance, since I didn't know what that meant... I had to learn that the hard way. On the other hand this is what makes it so sweet smile Even if I fail, I would have learned so many new stuff on the way. And then there's my physics education which isn't helping me with anything on the project wink That's what I meant.

Aha! I see! Yes, my physics and math education is mostly useless too. Especially as my current career has diverged. I have been using it out of just personal interest though. Been reading up on the singlet chiral superfield in NMSSM models smile Interesting stuff. Sort of glad I didn't go into mathematical physics actually. I might still be trapped there... haha... (OK, only half a "ha" in case you are trapped there wink )


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814088
02/12/19 01:16 PM
02/12/19 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
What I meant is this entire initiative of mine - the DIY controller - involves only stuff that's entirely new to me laugh I mean, I didn't even know how grand actions worked before I started, I haven't ever made anything mechanical with my hands besides assembling IKEA furniture, I am a self-taught pianist, I haven't worked with electronics, let alone designing PCB-s, etc. and even in my day time job - software engineering - I am self-taught, so even if that helps a bit at least with the code, I've never worked stuff like controller programming, etc. I mean, from some angle it seems like a very lame and noob endeavor on my side laugh I'm learning from scratch so many things... My initial PCB design didn't include pull-up resistors at all, for instance, since I didn't know what that mean... I had to learn that the hard way. On the other hand this is what makes it so sweet smile Even if I fail, I would have learned so many new stuff on the way.

That's the Cristofori spirit!


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814092
02/12/19 01:22 PM
02/12/19 01:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't think I get what you mean in point 1. It assumes there's a specific ideal point for stopping the shank and I don't agree. In my opinion there's no magic point, the stop rail needs to be as close to the hammer as possible. This will minimize the effect of hammer weight inertia bending the rest of the shank.

When the shank hits the stop rail, impact waves are sent through the shank wood. The position of the rail impacts oscillation. This all differs from forces your system faced for a century with the original string & hammer scheme. I suppose this is somewhat mitigated by new foam at the stop rail. Regardless, given the randomness of old wood and pain of estimations, your approach of moving the rail as close to the hammer as possible seems like a good approach.

On a side note, there are some "interesting" studies on the flexing mode of the shank and its potential impact on tone for staccato vs. legato playing.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
As to cushioning, of course I've put a thick foam layer on the stop rail, otherwise it would have been a DIY vibraphone laugh I found one that's very thick and seems very durable, I like how it cushions the shanks so far. The longer use when finished will eventually show if it's enough.

My basic thought was that a sandwich of 2-3 different cushiony materials might provide a much quieter experience.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I have redesigned everything with SMD elements, I've designed all three types of PCB-s (small sensor ones for each sensor, the comparator ones - each one managing 5 keys and one for the controller). I've received all elements, and the PCB-s are manufactured, waiting for them to arrive this or the other week and will then need to find some time to solder everything.

I've never worked with SMD elements and my research on the Internet concluded I should 0603 sized resistors which now seems like so tiny! But I have good eyes, steady hand and a good set of very tiny tweezers so hopefully all that won't turn into a nightmare for soldering smile

Awesome.

You might check out the Louis Rossman MacBook repair videos on Vimeo & youtube. He uses: hot air, flat-tipped soldiering iron, magnifying "glass", lots of flux.

Louis uses leaded soldier; that is lower melting point so is easier to work with so reduces your probability of destroying pads. I think leaded soldier is not commonly available in the EU for consumer products on RoHS as it is bad for you, your daughter and the environment.

The flux can be terrible for your lungs so make sure your room is very well ventilated. When done with the boards, you want to wash the flux off as it is corrosive (e.g. use 99%+ alcohol for electronics or find an ultrasonic cleaner).

Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814775
02/13/19 06:07 PM
02/13/19 06:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,743
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
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Yep, leaded solder is not sold in the EU although I can order from China but I don’t know, not sure I want to. I purchased a lead free one from Amazon and there are many people who like it. Hopefully it’s not too difficult to use it.

As to flux, I purchased a flux pen. Seems it contains just alcohol (propan-2-ol). Maybe not so bad for lungs.

Here are a few pictures of the stuff:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I watched a few SMD tutorials. Basically they apply the pen over the pads, then appply some solder, finally position the element, solder one pad, see if positioned properly and correct if needed, solder diagonally (if a chip) then solder the rest with a flat tip. Don’t know if I have to remove that type of flux with anything though.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/13/19 06:07 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DIY real grand action controller? [Re: CyberGene] #2814776
02/13/19 06:11 PM
02/13/19 06:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Basically they apply the pen over the pads, then appply some solder, finally position the element, solder one pad, see if positioned properly and correct if needed, solder diagonally (if a chip) then solder the rest with a flat tip.

This is in an idea situation with an experienced person. If you make any mistakes, you'll need that SMD rework station I was referring to. You can either get it now, or order one the first time you mess up laugh (Been there, done that, didn't get a shirt... laugh )


across the stone, deathless piano performances
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