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Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? #2813958
02/12/19 07:36 AM
02/12/19 07:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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I simply must have been doing it wrong--for hundreds of repetitions, too. It was getting there, just took a little persistence.
But..the E quaver (in the third bar there) is achieved (can only be) by repeating with the little finger, moving sideways. So, that's a legitimate convention, it must be.
[Linked Image]
But, I've just wasted those hundreds of repetitions I mentioned in the first bar--I've been doing the E quaver in the melody with my forefinger, so to enable lagato.
But--if moving the same finger sideways is legit (as with the third bar example) then it must also be for the first bar--in this case, the thumb.
Feels weird! Like, something a kid would try, not supposed to do it like that. Legato impossible, obviously. So now I'm learning that bar again--this time moving the thumb sideways...it's easier, but still feels weird (this is my first piece with a significant chord component).
Can I assume I'm back on the right track now, is my question...?

As I say, this is my first piece (short, easy pieces) with a significant proportion of chords--tricky! Particularly in the left hand--never done that, it's actually quite fun, though hard to get right. Particularly the caper where one of the fingers changes key, while the other continues the chord...don't know what you call that, but it's new to me. Must be a good learning experience, anyhow--certainly increases dexterity. Onward! grin

BTW, the piece I'm learning, shown in the pic is...? smile
BTW2--the third bar in the pic--is it actually printed right? Seems to be a quaver missing in the RH....?

Last edited by thickfingers; 02/12/19 07:39 AM. Reason: bold bracket missed
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Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2813974
02/12/19 08:26 AM
02/12/19 08:26 AM
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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I haven't tried this myself (I'm at a computer keyboard, no piano near), but have you tried playing the D and E in the first bar with your left hand?

I.e. start the left with 5 on the A (not 4 as notated) then play the bass-clef-B and the treble-clef-D both with the LH, then the same for the bass-clef-C and the treble-clef-E, then only the bass-clef-D with the LH and the RH plays the treble-clef-F and A together.

So that would be:
RH: 5/1 for C/F, 4 for B, 3/1 for A/F etc.
LH: 5 for A, 2/4 for D/B, 1/3 for E/C, 2 for D etc.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2813975
02/12/19 08:31 AM
02/12/19 08:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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P.S. Also about the 5/1, 5, 5/1 in the third bar, where you write this "can only be achieved" by repeating the 5 on F-E-D.

Have you tried playing this with 5/1, 4, 3/1, 2/1, i.e. 5,4,3,2 on the sequence of F,E,D,C?

As said, I'm not at a piano, but it feels doable when I tap it on the table top...

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: JoBert] #2813983
02/12/19 08:55 AM
02/12/19 08:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Well, I've just tried those tips JoB, on both bars, I suppose they're doable...but are they correct? You seem to be saying the rightward thumb movement in bar one, and leftward little finger in bar three, are incorrect. If so, then why the fingering supplied on the page?

My query concerns the rightness (or not) of sideward repetition of a particular digit. In the third bar (as printed) the RH little finger must shunt leftwards with each note.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2813987
02/12/19 09:11 AM
02/12/19 09:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,874
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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First, there is no "correct" or right or wrong fingering. There is fingering that works for you and that accomplishes what you want musically, and there is fingering that doesn't work.

This sounds like a chorale, in fact very similar to Haydn's piece that got adapted for the German anthem. If it were me, I would try to connect the top line only, use the pedal, and not worry too much about the other fingering. That last measure, with the 5,5,5, will not be a problem with the pedal.

Sometimes the same finger repeats - no problem, that's a useful technique.

Sam

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2813992
02/12/19 09:20 AM
02/12/19 09:20 AM
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Zaphod Offline
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Another possibility might be (and I too have not got a piano keyboard in front of me so take with a pinch of salt ) :

5-4-5-4 In the right hand in bar three.

1/5 (First chord) then 1/4 to 2/4 ( on the second chord with the quavers) then 1/3 on the third chord RH bar 1. It sounds like you were originally doing this, or very similar.

If unsure of fingering, perhaps gather more than one alternative and see which one feels the best.


Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: Sam S] #2813995
02/12/19 09:27 AM
02/12/19 09:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Thanks Sam, so it is legit...just new to me, as I said, and so feels odd. I'd much prefer to be able to do what's suggested on the print, re fingering. The arranger, I'm sure, knows better than this novice what fingering is best.

Haydn, Emperor's Hymn, yep. Very satisfying to learn, as my other (very) few pieces are largely devoid of chord work. A new phase.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814006
02/12/19 09:57 AM
02/12/19 09:57 AM
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I think the arranger expects you to play with RH in the first bar, 5-2, 4-1 then holding 4, use 2 on the E and back to 1 on the F (thumb under), i.e. 5-2, 4-1, (4)-2, 3-1 thereby connecting all the notes without pedal. The original would have been for string quartet in 4-part harmony, and as you know, strings connect notes smoothly without pedal wink .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhuyLPKV96g


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: bennevis] #2814019
02/12/19 10:37 AM
02/12/19 10:37 AM
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Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
1/5 (First chord) then 1/4 to 2/4 ( on the second chord with the quavers) then 1/3 on the third chord RH bar 1. It sounds like you were originally doing this, or very similar.

Yep, exactly that. Thought it worked, but then figured if sidestepping in bar 3 is OK, then so is it with the thumb.
Originally Posted by bennevis
I think the arranger expects you to play with RH in the first bar, 5-2, 4-1 then holding 4, use 2 on the E and back to 1 on the F (thumb under), i.e. 5-2, 4-1, (4)-2, 3-1 thereby connecting all the notes without pedal.

Thanks, just tried that--hadn't occurred to me, I guess that's part of learning piano. Seems reasonable, but finger 3 does take some doing legato on the thumbtuck chord. I'll practice it, see if it seems more fluent than the thumby way.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814105
02/12/19 01:59 PM
02/12/19 01:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,937
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Now that I have tried it on the piano, I don't like my idea of distributing some notes to the LH.

For my hands, the given fingering in bar 1 (with thumb under) works, so I would play it with the written fingering. But 1-1-1 would work too, with pedal, if the thumb under doesn't work for you.

In bar 3 I would indeed use 1/5, 4, 1/3, 1/2 as I suggested, unless that leaves me in a bad position for the next bar (that you didn't show). If that were the case, I would use the repeated 5-5-5 as written.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814114
02/12/19 02:21 PM
02/12/19 02:21 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,128
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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This would work for me rather than thumb, thumb, thumb: If it's not clear that's 5/2, 4/1 on the first two chords.

[Linked Image]

In the third measure, I could easily use 5, 4, 3, 2 on the top notes, but that might be dependent upon what comes next.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814139
02/12/19 03:08 PM
02/12/19 03:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Thanks, fellas--yep, it looks like Bruce's shown bar 1 works better than 1,1,1. Good.
Bruce, you must mean 4/1 on bar 2...
Re bar 3: 5,4,3,2 does work, actually--next bar starts with a repeat of bar 3's F/D chord, followed by a C quaver--I can hutch 5 (legato) onto the D, no problem. Didn't think of that! The arranger maybe should have...

Anyway-- both sets of single digit repeats have hereby been superseded. grin

I only posted this for confirm my fingering rethink was correct...and it wasn't! Ah, well...

EDIT, the revised bar 3 will of course have to begotten used to...the stretching aches. cry

Last edited by thickfingers; 02/12/19 03:17 PM.
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814142
02/12/19 03:15 PM
02/12/19 03:15 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,128
Victoria, BC
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Originally Posted by thickfingers
[...]Bruce, you must mean 4/1 on bar 2...
[..].


No, I did mean 4/2 on bar 2; then you have a smooth legato in the lower voice down from F to E; 2 to 1. It works for me, at any rate.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814144
02/12/19 03:20 PM
02/12/19 03:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 43
Annapolis MD
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@thickfingers: I looked in imslp, they have a lot of versions of this, but I can't find one that looks like yours. Mind revealing the source of your arrangement?

TIA - Gerhard


They say extra practice can make up for modesty of talent (up to a point) - I sure hope so...
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: BruceD] #2814151
02/12/19 03:37 PM
02/12/19 03:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by thickfingers
[...]Bruce, you must mean 4/1 on bar 2...
[..].
No, I did mean 4/2 on bar 2; then you have a smooth legato in the lower voice down from F to E; 2 to 1.

Does indeed work, thanks! Harder (for me) to implement, though...fiddly, but better. Practice. Cheers!

Gerhard--sadly, it's only 16 bars long...been looking for a longer version myself (same kind of difficulty).
This one's from a book--Usborne book of Piano Classics (80 Pieces).

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814478
02/13/19 09:02 AM
02/13/19 09:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
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UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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Just thought I'd reprise this for an moment...extremely satisfying, getting chords in sync and time! Just been drilling the new regime for bar 1--(with respect to the 3/1 chord) drilling firstly with only finger 1, then only with 3, then 3/1 together. Just a matter of drilling. It's coming.
How musical it sounds, when sync'd and timed. If just one bar sounds nice, how sweet will the whole thing be...
Oh, and the new bars 2 and 3 already work nicely, not so tricky as the first measure.

That's it-- just a brief noob report. Abientot!

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814510
02/13/19 11:13 AM
02/13/19 11:13 AM
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Philadelphia, PA
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jdw Offline
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Of course, a lot depends on hand size. For myself, with a small hand, I don't love 5/2 at the start, and I would not stretch to play the E with 2 holding 5 on Bb. So I personally would play 5/1, 4/1, 1 on E, then 4/2 to 1 on on the chord marked 3/1. I wouldn't use 4/2 on bar 2, again because for me it's a stretch. To each his/her own.


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Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: jdw] #2814663
02/13/19 03:14 PM
02/13/19 03:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 336
UK
thickfingers Offline OP
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I've had study of your description, JDW. Can't make it out, so can't try it. As for my new regime for that bar...not easy. Re the 3/1 chord...3 is easy, 1 is easy, both together difficult: finger 3 wants to pass through G# key (in the way). Suppose it will get easier over time.
Hope it works--the thumby way (1,1,1) is clunky and amateurish, I've decided (besides not being proper legato).
As far as I'm concerned, the pedal is for fills between chords (where necessary), not for compensating for fingering ineptitude.

Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814689
02/13/19 03:50 PM
02/13/19 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by thickfingers
[...]As far as I'm concerned, the pedal is for fills between chords (where necessary), not for compensating for fingering ineptitude.


That's a good lesson, well-learned! Would that more amateurs understood that.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Should this be fingered thumbthumbthumb? [Re: thickfingers] #2814693
02/13/19 03:59 PM
02/13/19 03:59 PM
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Reseda, California
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Originally Posted by thickfingers
. As for my new regime for that bar...not easy. Re the 3/1 chord...3 is easy, 1 is easy, both together difficult: finger 3 wants to pass through G# key (in the way). .


The 3/1 chord that I see on the chart is F and A, both naturals. If G# is in the way, your whole hand is too close to the fallboard. It's best to use the wide part of the whites when you can. Be near the ends of the blacks, but don't let them get in the way.


-- J.S.

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