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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: Groove On] #2813437 02/11/19 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by Pete14
Let me put it this way, a severly injured Steinway M will blow any hybrid out of the water!

grin Ha ha - well I disagree, but it's an amusing way to put it.

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Okay, perhaps not ‘severly injured’, but at least grossly neglected. laugh

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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813440 02/11/19 07:58 AM
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No, it's not the sound card. Everything else sounds good.

The shortfall items in Pianoteq are:
1. Fake sounding highs.
2. Overall distant sound across the compass, as though the piano were not here, but instead somewhere in the next room.
I find these in all of the many pianos in the package.
Question: I've tried the demo version. Does Pianoteq "hold back" the best sounds in that package, reserving the best only for the paid version???

Anyway, a soundcard won't produce those faults. And there are really no bad sound cards anymore.

Maybe I notice these things because I'm more accustomed to acoustic pianos?
Whereas others are accustomed to digital (and to synthetic sounds of all kinds), so prevalent in modern music?
I really don't know.

But the difference between an acoustic piano and a good sampled VST is one of nuance. Significant nuance to be sure, but the comparison is valid and meaningful to me.
Whereas the difference between an acoustic and Pianoteq is night and day.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: MacMacMac] #2813446 02/11/19 08:21 AM
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How did this topic morph into another Pianoteq discussion with the same cast of characters quoting from the same script?


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813449 02/11/19 08:26 AM
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There should be bans already!


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: scorpio] #2813455 02/11/19 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by scorpio
How did this topic morph into another Pianoteq discussion with the same cast of characters quoting from the same script?


Pianoteq is the Godwin's Law of the DP forum.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813459 02/11/19 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This is the heart of the problem: It just doesn't sound right.

Just never ceases to amaze me how different our perceptions can be compared to the next person. Amazing and amusing.


I don't think this issue will ever be resolved how we all hear pianoteq differently.

No disrespect to the OP whose qualifications I can only admire, I think even at the professional level this applies, some swear by it and think it is real, some don't. Another Pro Phil Johnston swears by Garritan, Phil best loves pianoteq.

Phil Best has all of his recordings on pianoteq which he claims are carefully mastered and has blind tested people and says they fail.
Yet I went on spotify and listened and still recognise pianoteq, but it is much harder to do, there were moments I was struggling, I thought WOW, this is really convincing, but if i listen long enough eventually that pianoteq character reveals itself in the middle higher registers for me at some velocities and some dynamic levels.

I did some blind tests too, an easy way is to check out our recitals recordings in the adult beginner forum. Many of these would probably use pianoteq with default settings. I did it couple of years ago when we were at about v 5.x. I listened without looking at the notes, just to see if I could identify the pianoteq entries, out of the 50 something or so there were 9 or so, anyway, I had a 100% success rate with that.

It would be foolish of me to suggest I can never be defeated with some performance or other, but the demos on the pianoteq site fair no better for me, the few I heard anyway, especially when no pedal is used and the raw notes are exposed.

Of course it is already much easier when you know what something is beforehand, and then have bias. We are all fallible when it comes to sound, me included, hence the blind test.

I usually can't tell which model is used, that is much more difficult, but what I do hear is a common theme in the sound characteristics.

I don't think it matters whether one claims to be an audiophile and likes accuracy/authenticity in sound, because we have several here that would still pick pianoteq or a roland over anything else, I also find that strange, but to each their own, No Problemo.

Just my 02.


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: rach3master] #2813462 02/11/19 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rach3master
Originally Posted by computerpro3

I agree with you out of the box. It takes upgrading to the middle version of Pianoteq (significantly more expensive), using the Bluethner as a base, tweaking with virtual microphone placement, and degrading the artificial perfectness with the wear slider. And even then, you still need to disable the low-fi Pianoteq reverb and use a high quality convolution reverb like East West Spaces II.

But once that is done, I know it sounds like an acoustic. I've done blind experiments with several professional pianists.


Hi computerpro3,

Would you care to share some sample recordings of this setup? I must admit I'm not convinced by any Pianoteq recordings I've heard so far. I'm curious what you've been able to achieve.


I couldn't agree more! I'm also curious about hearing some recordings of what you've been able to achieve.

This is a really nice thread ( at least the beginning part of it ), and I think lots of people already thought about the same thing, but maybe were not brave enough to write it down since it's sure to cause some heated discussions. However, I can only tell that I'm on the sameboat with you computerpro3, the level of realism you get on these new digital pianos its outstanding. Modelling keeps going forward, and I can only dream about the day when the industry leaders will find the perfect setup for the digital as you mentioned, blended in with the proper speaker and amplifiers so that it truly delivers in real life. I'm curious if any owner of a N3X (N3) could tell how the sound projection feels (given the cabinet shape, and having a lid which will move the acoustic waves kind of like an acoustic ) .

Instead of trying to argue, let's all be happy that we live in a time where we have so many options and we can experience so much with pianos ( both acoustics and digital ) . Steinway Spirio system it's also a really nice addition, concerts recordings better sound perfect I hope smile


www.youtube.com/channel/UC073i6RnxK4NcnoFp1jYh7Q The place where I ocasionally post my amateur recordings smile
Criticism is welcomed since it helps improving and going forward!

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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813472 02/11/19 09:08 AM
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Why must you compare with a Steinway D (which costs $150,000, is that right)?
I don't see why the NV10 must be compared with the most expensive concert grand.

Why not compare with the 6' parlor Steinway? Or a similarly sized M&H (at $30,000 maybe)?
Or a $20k Chinese grand?

Do the grand actions differ that much amongst those? I don't think so.
Mostly they differ in the scale and soundboard and enclosure. In other words the OUTPUT side.
They're very much the same in the action (the INPUT side).

So ... must the NV10 be compared with only the most expensive grand?
Originally Posted by computerpro3
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's an apples and oranges comparison. Not worthy of consideration in this context.
Originally Posted by computerpro3
I can replace a digital hybrid about 10 times before the cost equals that of a top tier Steinway.
I don't really understand why that is the case.

There is exactly one technical area where a Steinway D beats a Novus NV10 - the quality of the projected sound to an audience, given an ideal environment. Of course, there are several other non-technical areas (Steinway is better in build quality, romanticism, etc), but when it comes to making music it's a lot closer. Is this important? Absolutely. But do most of us play for audiences? Absolutely not.

The action on the Nv10 is equally good or more consistent, I can achieve recordings that sound identical to acoustic and nobody here would ever know, and the expressivity and control I get out of it in conjunction with Pianoteq is equal to the vast majority of Steinway Ds in existence. Further, I've played on a lot of bad Steinway Ds - even those that were regularly maintained by universities! The Nv10 doesn't suffer such inconsistency.

I am not talking about performing for a concert hall - that is where Steinway D stands alone. But in a house for the serious classical musician who looks at an instrument as a tool? The cost becomes completely relevant, and I can achieve more with an average, off the shelf NV10 than I can with anything except a religiously maintained, top 5% Steinway D.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813483 02/11/19 09:35 AM
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Since people are asking, here are two quick clips I recorded before work this morning. I apologize for a few missed notes, I was in a time crunch and only had time to make one go of it.

Here is an example of what I feel sounds a bit fake - this is Pianoteq with the piano condition set to "mint"

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyub243he0a7jpu/pianoteq%20mint.wav?dl=0

Here is what I feel sounds a bit more real (but doesn't sound as pleasing), with the condition slider set in the middle of mint and worn.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3cfmsr5639l4gp/Pianoteq%20worn.wav?dl=0

I only had time to add a preset reverb to it, East West Spaces II. The preset I used with Northwest Hall TS RR 2.6s. This will be a little wetter than the Front/Rear mics. When I have more time I will play with the mics and reverb settings to show what I believe it's capable of and post here, but I've got to get back to work for now.

Last edited by computerpro3; 02/11/19 09:45 AM.
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813488 02/11/19 09:47 AM
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computerpro3, that's a terrific playing! I wish you good luck with the Texas competition. And it's a favorite piece of mine which I thoroughly enjoyed in your performance.

However the sound is almost unbearable to my ears frown Especially the second version has some nasty sound artifacts that make it even worse than the first one.

And since I'll be criticized of being the regular "hater" of Pianoteq, I'll stop here before being persecuted by the Pianoteq aficionados wink


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: CyberGene] #2813500 02/11/19 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
However the sound is almost unbearable to my ears frown Especially the second version has some nasty sound artifacts that make it even worse than the first one.

And since I'll be criticized of being the regular "hater" of Pianoteq, I'll stop here before being persecuted by the Pianoteq aficionados wink

Use a MIDI cable and connect a top of the line Clavinova to the NV10. Problem solved. laugh


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: JoeT] #2813503 02/11/19 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Use a MIDI cable and connect a top of the line Clavinova to the NV10. Problem solved. laugh

Isn't this called N1X? wink


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813527 02/11/19 11:28 AM
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I think the OP made some interesting comments, and before things get too Pianoworlded (aka off topic), I would like to add a few comments.

1. Novus action is fantastic. Yes. AvantGrand actions were unofficially endorsed by professional pianists, and Kawai one-upped Yamaha by adding longer key sticks and damper rod lift simulation. I think at this point there is little argument that these two actions are not awesome grand piano actions.
2. Speakers of Novus isn’t that great. I think they are plenty good, but Yamaha N2 and above are better.
3. Pianoteq is realistic. This is what most people are commenting about and it really depends on the listener. Some people are more sensitive to Pianoteq’s artifacts than others. On the Google Music store, there is a Phil Best recording of Chopin Nocturnes done on Pianoteq. To me, the piano sounds a lot like Moravec’s 1966 recording of the Nocturnes, and most of the time I can forget its Pianoteq. Every now and then I hear Pianoteq which makes me a little sad. The detuning feature of Pianoteq adds realism but also hides its flaws. It’s more of a crutch rather than greatness of Pianoteq.
4. A hybrid DP can be better than an acoustic grand. I think this has been true since the AvantGrand introduction. I think more people are coming to terms with this now. Even a nice acoustic grand, like a Steinway O, is not really a match for a nice concert grand like a D. A small grand is a different instrument than a concert grand. A professional who has to sound good on any piano must work hard to achieve that. A professional who only has to sound good on a D could just practice on a D. I think the simulation of a nice D is achievable using a novus and a vst, to a degree. But for some people might prefer the “real” sounds of an acoustic (even an upright) rather than a vst, where as some people might prefer the “realism” of a virtual D.

I think we live in a nice time where someone could enjoy playing a virtual D to his or her satisfaction at a fraction of the cost and space. Making music is fun, however we do it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate on the minute differences of keystick lenghs and Pianoteq sound. :-)

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: CyberGene] #2813538 02/11/19 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
computerpro3, that's a terrific playing! I wish you good luck with the Texas competition. And it's a favorite piece of mine which I thoroughly enjoyed in your performance.

However the sound is almost unbearable to my ears...


Agreed. Absolutely unbearable. I don’t think you could experience a more unpleasant, unpiano-like sound from something purporting to be a piano.


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: EssBrace] #2813552 02/11/19 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by CyberGene
computerpro3, that's a terrific playing! I wish you good luck with the Texas competition. And it's a favorite piece of mine which I thoroughly enjoyed in your performance.

However the sound is almost unbearable to my ears...


Agreed. Absolutely unbearable. I don’t think you could experience a more unpleasant, unpiano-like sound from something purporting to be a piano.


Same here. Great playing, horrible sound... Having said this Pianoteq can do much better than this. While I think Pianoteq is not as good as the best sampled pianos (and what's best is also subjective...) I think ti's not far behind and completely fake as some believe. If I had to rank the virtual pianos that I have played (dozens and dozens of them), it wouldn't rank at the top but it would definitely rank "above average".


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Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813554 02/11/19 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
Since people are asking, here are two quick clips I recorded before work this morning. I apologize for a few missed notes, I was in a time crunch and only had time to make one go of it.

Could you provide the MIDI files, please?


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813567 02/11/19 12:54 PM
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I only listened to the second clip. I actually think it would fool the fast majority of the general public - the unison detuning makes it sound "acoustic". Sometimes it sounds real to me, but other times it does sound fake. For example, sometimes the unison detuning sounds like a chorus or flanger effect, rather than a recording of real detuning. Overall I quite like it. I seem to be more fussy about Pianoteq when I'm actually playing it - I definitely feel a sense of relief if I switch to a good sampled piano.

Greg.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2813572 02/11/19 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
Since people are asking, here are two quick clips I recorded before work this morning. I apologize for a few missed notes, I was in a time crunch and only had time to make one go of it...

Here is what I feel sounds a bit more real (but doesn't sound as pleasing), with the condition slider set in the middle of mint and worn...

I only had time to add a preset reverb to it, East West Spaces II. The preset I used with Northwest Hall TS RR 2.6s. This will be a little wetter than the Front/Rear mics. When I have more time I will play with the mics and reverb settings to show what I believe it's capable of and post here, but I've got to get back to work for now.

That was fantastic playing.

With this level of performance, maybe some of us, including me, are expecting the sound quality to compete with that of a well regulated concert piano recorded and mastered by professional engineers from a recognized label.

Personally I think PianoTeq sound quality has a bit to go but have to admit this is a pretty good solution recorded at home on the fly.

Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Another Pro Phil Johnston swears by Garritan

But Philip Johnston wrote on these forums that he uses the onboard sounds from the N3 for playing. Then after the fact, he incorporates Garritan CFX full for music production.

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813578 02/11/19 01:08 PM
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At your level, I wonder if you would notice a difference PianoTeq Pro allows with respect to:

- Boosting internal sample rate processing from 48KHz to 192KHz (there are a couple of samples on the PianoTeq forum from last year that seem to sound slightly different but that might just be some randomization)


- The boost from 128 to 1024 MIDI levels (Tapping into the NV-10s sensor network and getting that data into your computer "correctly" would take a fair bit of effort)

Re: New hybrid digital pianos "too good" compared to acoustic? [Re: computerpro3] #2813613 02/11/19 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
Since people are asking, here are two quick clips I recorded before work this morning. I apologize for a few missed notes, I was in a time crunch and only had time to make one go of it.

Here is an example of what I feel sounds a bit fake - this is Pianoteq with the piano condition set to "mint"


Could we hear this with the NV10 native sound instead? I love the Novus NV10 sound over the native sound system and I don't get why anyone would prefer Pianoteq over that.

Note -- I believe the NV10 1.0.2e sound is superior to 1.0.2f.

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