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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2812815
02/09/19 05:46 PM
02/09/19 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
And it's 25% in Denmark.


[offtopic] I've never understood what VAT is for. Once somebody oversimplified it to me like this: businesses take it from the customers and then pay to the state because the state provided roads, electricity, business environment, economic development, etc. Sounds like cr*p to me but I've never been familiar with boring matter like that laugh


When the mobster with all the guns says: "Gimme the money!" You give the mobster the money, Whether he calls it "VAT", and whether he refers to himself as "The government" really doesn't matter. wink


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2812863
02/09/19 07:59 PM
02/09/19 07:59 PM
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As I consider whether to purchase a N1X, the one nagging concern I have is that the action is not used in any of Yamaha's grand pianos, but was made specifically for the AvantGrand. I assume that's why they call it "specialized."

So you really can't transition from the AG to any of Yamaha's pianos and feel like you're playing the same piano (like you can with Kawai's Novus Millennium III action).

This is the only factor that is giving me pause. I'm curious is anyone else feels the same way?

God Bless,
David


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: David B] #2812866
02/09/19 08:27 PM
02/09/19 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by David B
As I consider whether to purchase a N1X, the one nagging concern I have is that the action is not used in any of Yamaha's grand pianos, but was made specifically for the AvantGrand. I assume that's why they call it "specialized."

So you really can't transition from the AG to any of Yamaha's pianos and feel like you're playing the same piano (like you can with Kawai's Novus Millennium III action).

This is the only factor that is giving me pause. I'm curious is anyone else feels the same way?

God Bless,
David


Well, yes and no. I've stated here before that I've always felt the AG action to feel more like an NU1 action than any Yamaha grand I've played, which was surprising to me as well (I was also expecting it to feel identical to a Yamaha acoustic).

But that aside, is still the best DP action out there, along with the NV10, like head and shoulders above anything else. So while I don't think it feels *identical* to a Yamaha acoustic, it will make for seamless transition of you switch between acoustic and digital often. Cause really, even if it did feel identical to a C3X, a Bosendorfer, M&H, Hailun or Steinway will all feel different from either of those, and each other as well.

Also, I think "specialized" probably means the replacement of the felts with weights, the omission of key damper felts and the back action, the installation of the hammer shank shutters and smoked glass under the keys, and integration of the optical sensor system. Basically, all the stuff you need to do to an acoustic action so it will work in an AG. It may not mean the action is not otherwise identical to some Yamaha grand, we just don't know...


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2812885
02/09/19 09:08 PM
02/09/19 09:08 PM
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Hobart, Australia
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For what it's worth, I think the Yamaha AG action absolutely grand-like. I've got a Yamaha U3 upright and it is certainly mechanically different. I can feel the gravity acting on the "hammers" in a different way than my upright. I think it's a very good action would not harm anybody's touch and sensitivity for a real acoustic grand. Even if it is specially made for the AG series, it is literally a grand action. Sure, the hammers are metal, but everything else is the same. The only variable is the key stick length.There's no reason to be suspicious of it. I think some of the "disconnect" that comes from all the hybrids is that the actions are from small grands and the sounds come from concert grands. It creates a slight mismatch that we instinctively know isn't quite possible if we've ever played grand pianos. I think that feeling passes quickly though.

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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: ando] #2812887
02/09/19 09:15 PM
02/09/19 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
The only variable is the key stick length.


And to be clear, the keysticks aren't short. I believe bsharpcyclist here measured the pivot length on his N2, which was about 9.5", give or take. That's almost identical to a 6ft C3 grand I measured.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Gombessa] #2812894
02/09/19 09:28 PM
02/09/19 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


Well, yes and no. I've stated here before that I've always felt the AG action to feel more like an NU1 action than any Yamaha grand I've played, which was surprising to me as well (I was also expecting it to feel identical to a Yamaha acoustic).


That concerns me. I don't want an upright piano action. For the financial sacrifice I really want it to feel like an acoustic grand. Obviously, I will have to try it for myself. Psychologically, I would feel a whole lot better if Yamaha could say that this action comes from our xGrand piano like Kawai does with the Novus action.

Quote
It may not mean the action is not otherwise identical to some Yamaha grand, we just don't know...


Don't you think we would know that by now after 10 years of production. It seems like someone would have figured it out. That's why I think it's probably unique to the AvantGrand. Why wouldn't Yamaha capitalize on the marketing factor if it did come from one of their acoustic grands. It's a major selling point for the Novus.

I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer to see what the return policy is in case I don't like it. The only other option is to drive 3 hours to the his store and try it once he actuality takes one out of the box and puts it on display.

God bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 02/09/19 09:30 PM.

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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Gombessa] #2812901
02/09/19 09:50 PM
02/09/19 09:50 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've stated here before that I've always felt the AG action to feel more like an NU1 action than any Yamaha grand I've played, which was surprising to me as well (I was also expecting it to feel identical to a Yamaha acoustic).

Do you mean that the AG action of the N1UX is like an NU1 action? Why would the actions of the N1, N2, N3 be like an upright action?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2812909
02/09/19 10:04 PM
02/09/19 10:04 PM
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Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've stated here before that I've always felt the AG action to feel more like an NU1 action than any Yamaha grand I've played, which was surprising to me as well (I was also expecting it to feel identical to a Yamaha acoustic).

Do you mean that the AG action of the N1UX is like an NU1 action? Why would the actions of the N1, N2, N3 be like an upright action?

In short, they aren't.

I think people are confusing subjective experience with reality. It's not even possible for the AG action to feel like an upright action. And it doesn't. Just because one person on a given day wasn't feeling it doesn't mean we should launch into an involved discussion about the problem with AGs having a sub-par grand action. Most people agree that it's a leading action, along with the NV10. The rest is just personal preference. I don't like Kawai grand actions because I find them heavy, but I know that's just my personal preference. I'm not going to call it a fault.

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2812926
02/09/19 11:03 PM
02/09/19 11:03 PM
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God Bless America and the Great State of Michigan. 6%

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Euler1707] #2812929
02/09/19 11:13 PM
02/09/19 11:13 PM
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Milano
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Milano
Originally Posted by Euler1707
God Bless America and the Great State of Michigan. 6%

Plus federal import duties and fees.

Of course your income was already taxed well over 40% at the federal and state marginal rates.

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: David B] #2812952
02/10/19 12:20 AM
02/10/19 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Do you mean that the AG action of the N1UX is like an NU1 action? Why would the actions of the N1, N2, N3 be like an upright action?


No, I was trying to avoid repeating what I had written before but probably ended up sounding too vague. When I play on an NU1, my impression of the action is that it definitely feels like a real acoustic upright action (it is), but it feels like a small acoustic to me--i feel the key dip is fairly shallow, the picot length is on the shower end, especially compared to Yamaha U3s, and my general take is that it leans to the stiff and heavy side. Lots of people apparently feel the same way, and even like it that way, as the NU1 is attractive to some as a practice piano. If you can tame that action, you can play on anything.

When I auditioned all the models in the AvantGrand range, I felt they exhibited many of the same characteristics as the NU1 I play--the key dip felt shallow, the pivot seemed a bit short (though in reality it's not short), and the general feel was a tad stiff and heavy, not what I was expecting coming from a C3 and a 7ft Bosendorfer. That's not to say it doesn't feel like a real grand (it does), or that it feels more like an be upright than a grand (it doesn't), it just struck me that it shared many of the attributes I felt with the NU1.

I liked it, but surprisingly, not as much as I thought I would. So I decided to wait for the NV10 to be released, and try that before making a decision. When the NV10 came into the shop, I tried it for a few hours and bought it on the spot.

Originally Posted by David B

That concerns me. I don't want an upright piano action. For the financial sacrifice I really want it to feel like an acoustic grand.


Please see above, sorry for any confusion.

Quote

Don't you think we would know that by now after 10 years of production. It seems like someone would have figured it out. That's why I think it's probably unique to the AvantGrand. Why wouldn't Yamaha capitalize on the marketing factor if it did come from one of their acoustic grands. It's a major selling point for the Novus.


Frankly, I'm not surprised. Outside of this forum, I find that few pianists are really all that curious about their instruments, especially digitals and especially high end ones. And I suspect very few people own an AG plus an assortment of Yamaha acoustic grands to make a comparison.

The AGs have been out for 10 years, and there was also no common knowledge of what the key pivot length was, even though Yamaha when stresses it as a marketing point in their actions now. Only in the last few months, a forum member here took all of the 2 minutes needed to lift the fallboard and measure and report the key length. Shouldn't we have known what it was 10 years earlier?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Gombessa] #2812967
02/10/19 01:43 AM
02/10/19 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Frankly, I'm not surprised. Outside of this forum, I find that few pianists are really all that curious about their instruments, especially digitals and especially high end ones. And I suspect very few people own an AG plus an assortment of Yamaha acoustic grands to make a comparison.


That makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813054
02/10/19 10:08 AM
02/10/19 10:08 AM
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I can't really say much about the actions of uprights, as I rarely play on one. My lessons are on a Yamaha Baby Grand, C2. I think the action of the N2 is similar, except that the C2 requires a little more effort to produce pp, compared to the N2.

Prior to the N2, I had a YDP-181, and let's just say, it's not anywhere near the same, which you would expect. Practicing at home and then playing during my lesson was problematic - it's as if I was playing on something completely different. Now, it feels similar enough that it doesn't bother me.

Unfortunately, I don't think the N2 has the presence of sound and dynamic range as the C2. In my lesson yesterday I was playing Diabelli, Sonatina F Major (Op 168, No 1, Mvt III) and was thinking it sounds so much better on the C2, even though it was a bit out of tune.


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813075
02/10/19 11:13 AM
02/10/19 11:13 AM
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I'm wondering if we have to wait until the update of the N2 to get Yamaha's answer to the damper pedal simulation we got with the Novus. Was sort of hoping we'd see that with the reboot of the N1 to the N1x.

Am curious what the future holds - with the updates to the N1x, do you think the N2 need to continue to exist as a model, or will there continue to be enough differentiation to keep 3 versions?


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Gombessa] #2813119
02/10/19 02:18 PM
02/10/19 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by ando
The only variable is the key stick length.


And to be clear, the keysticks aren't short. I believe bsharpcyclist here measured the pivot length on his N2, which was about 9.5", give or take. That's almost identical to a 6ft C3 grand I measured.


Several months ago I measured the keystick length (up to the balance rail pin on a white key) of the N1 (which I owned) of my 2008 C3 acoustic grand and the Novus.

N1 -- 23 cm (9 inches)
C3 -- 25 cm (9.8 inches)
NV10 -- 26.2 cm (10.3 inches)


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Erard] #2813380
02/11/19 03:42 AM
02/11/19 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Erard

Several months ago I measured the keystick length (up to the balance rail pin on a white key) of the N1 (which I owned) of my 2008 C3 acoustic grand and the Novus.

N1 -- 23 cm (9 inches)
C3 -- 25 cm (9.8 inches)
NV10 -- 26.2 cm (10.3 inches)


Besides the AvantGrand, I wonder if Yamaha makes any acoustic grands with keys that short?

I'll actually have the opportunity to play a N1 tomorrow. I have to travel for work and there just happens to be a large Yamaha dealer in the area. I called today and they have a N1 and N3X on display. I've never been so excited to travel for work before. smile

God Bless,
David


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813385
02/11/19 04:02 AM
02/11/19 04:02 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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I’m not sure N1 represents well how N1X would sound (and even feel due to the key-sound connection). I remember a few years ago when I tested it side by side with NU1 and I preferred the latter. To a large degree it could have been because of the then new CFX sampling in the NU1. (And on the other hand I’ve grown up playing an upright so might be too attached to an “inferior” upright action smile )


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813388
02/11/19 04:10 AM
02/11/19 04:10 AM
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Has the C3/C3X longer keys than the C1/C2?

Or the shorter keys on the Avant Grand are an indicator that the action is adapted from a GB or GC instead of a C/CX?

In any case, I doubt that Yamaha has developed a specific action for the AGs. Isn’t there any information on this topic? These hybrids have been on the market for a decade...

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: arc7urus] #2813410
02/11/19 06:10 AM
02/11/19 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Has the C3/C3X longer keys than the C1/C2?.


I was told by a Yamaha technical rep that visited my house to fix a clicky key on my N3 (years ago) that the action was from a C3. That is clearly not the case - or at least the keysticks are not the same.

The C1 is another fairly reliably quoted source of the AG action. It is my understanding that the C1 (and possibly C2) does have a shorter action than C3, so maybe that's the answer.


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813444
02/11/19 08:08 AM
02/11/19 08:08 AM
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Isn't the wood in the AG pine? I would think the real acoustics use something different.


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