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Hi all,

It's been a long time since I've posted here :-)
After my adventures of getting a digital piano for the studio, (a nice v-piano), i realised, that a real piano just plays better, and much better to learn on. The V-piano has one of the greatest keybeds of digital pianos, but... the feeling and expression of hearing out of studio monitors is different. Its worth it, but not for learning.

I'm an advanced beginner (is that a thing? lol), with a lot to learn still. I use piano a lot for composing smaller pieces, but not had the classical training that I think I should have. So I'm on that now.

So, I'm able to get a real, proper piano now. I don't want a grand-piano, because of space... but I would like a piano that has great sound and playability, preferably comes close to a grand-piano. Getting the piano in is the hard part, so I'm willing to spend a little more on a piano (instead of loaning it). I want one that I can keep for a long time, and also make studio records with (it have a home studio)

There are many options for a piano. I am looking for an upright. I am thinking... Get a used, or get a new. They say that pianos after 1950 are just not as good as before 1950. I found a local piano deader who have Steinway & Sons Z, Grotrian Steinwegs (most models, but the sound of Concertinos are great, but there are many versions, difference in price is quite big within that price range).

Now my V-Piano has (double)escapement. Is this something available in upright pianos? (i know older ones don't have them). And is this even necessary.

Regarding what type I play? I'm doing lessons for classical music. I will probably play some modern as well, but mostly focussed on classical. If I would attach a composer to the pieces I like to play or will play, they are Debussy, Bach, Coupering. Modern pieces probably like Nobuo Uematsu.

Is Grotrian Steinweg a good investment? I think that perhaps the Steinway & Sons Z sound a bit too modern perhaps. Are there other good models/brands to look out for? And should I pick a used or new? (budget is about 10-15k euros).

I know its always about playing them and making my own decisions, but having a good starting point is valuable.

Oh dear, designers at it again aren't they?

Actually I quite like the look of the table one. Nice and minimal looking although they have carefully left the associated sound system and wiring out of the picture. And I wouldn't really want someone spilling glasses of wine and crumbs into my keyboard, and it won't work as well as a table (legroom) if it has to be much thicker to accommodate the keyboard but I'm sure someone would like one in the home or office. In an office reception area might actually be a good place for one.

Ehm, I get the mockery, but I am trying to be serious :-) Aside, I've been not a designer for the past near decade or such, and actively studying piano next to my day job. I compose for small project based games as a side hobby (as do they). I find myself being a advanced beginner because even tho I played a lot, I miss basics which I'm learning (you know, ladders, more finger practises etc). And I want to have a piano that suits my needs. Looks are kinda irrelevant. (as long as its not a piano with paint on it, especially not blackboard paint... )

In which case I would suggest that they, whoever "they" might be, are not worth listening too

New or used with money left over for lessons and tuning? That's the usual dilemma, if you are looking for a starting point I'd say start the easy way and play whatever new models are available around you until you think you have a favourite. Then the hard work starts, go around playing used models, lots of them. You will probably find that different used examples, even of the same model, can sound and play very differently, so don't jump to quick conclusions on what a particular model is like.

FWIW, I particularly liked Petrovs and Kawai k500 (not the 300) amongst the new pianos I tried, but ended up preferring and getting a lightly used Yamaha U3 (actually UX3) in the end. I'd always say that in the used market you are best to go by how the individual instrument performs, and it's condition, rather than pre-judging them by manufacturer's name etc.

At the end you'll know when you have found the right one ...

Maybe :-) There was one good reason I found, and that was that ages wood usually sounds better (works less), but also means the substantial care that increases, as well.


Well,.. there is some inherited money. And I want to not spend it on something I won't use, or goes in brick and mortar or other useless things. The person where I inherited it from appreciated me making music, so its something special to me. I wouldn't go for it any other way I think.


Thanks, this is always a good advice. I'm lucky to have a place nearby that sells quite some different ones. I know focussing on "the big names" is a little blind.


I like the Kawai synthesizers :-), but now you mentioning them, they are familiar in terms of sound. I think its worth trying them out. The Yamahas have a quite typical sound that I don't dislike, but perhaps not for the music I play. Then again, I don't want to disregard them before I actually played more of them.

Thanks for the reply.

Ah, very sorry. I don't know how this happened but that post was in a different thread completely. Please ignore it here.

Haha, no worries. You know, I could even understand the topic. "those fancy designers, just want a piece of expensive furniture" kind of thing... :-)

gwing was responding to a post titled Yamaha Designs. I posted a link in both Digital and this forum where Yamaha put a high end digital piano in well made Chinese wood furniture like a round table or a small modern desk with night stand. Back to your post. Gwing’s advice is dead on! In general, the taller the upright the better the sound. Both Yamaha and Kawai make very nice studio pianos. If you think you’d rather buy used the Yamahas followed by Kawai are probably the most plentiful and in the big studio uprights are designed to last through piano students banging out their lessons. Here you need to be careful. You don’t want a used upright that’s been through the torture test. For anything used, get an independent piano technician to check it out. Also, the piano tech might know of some good used uprights for you to consider. Take lots of notes. It doesn’t really matter where you are in your musical learning, a big upright with a pleasing touch and sound is something you will enjoy playing for many years to come. Best of Luck!

WingNL,

why not play Het Wilhelmus on a nice Rippen Concerto 122? Approx. from 198X ? Underestimated, low cost - spend your money on top prepping and voicing! Many parts of it are labeled top Schimmel parts.

https://www.verhoogmuziek.nl/rippenconcerto122/01-92

http://www.chicagopianos.com/12302009_update/rippen-concerto2.html

http://www.klanggestaltung-klavier-...avier/101-februar-juli-2009-oktober-2010

I do not understand the op's statement pianos about pianos made
"after 1950 are not as good as pianos made before 1950 "
This is probably an urban legend .
If you want a used piano that is fine as long as it is not too old .
Surely there are many good used European pianos in the
Netherlands eg -Bechstein, Bluthner, Sauter,August Forster, Steingraeber.
Apart from this Yamaha U3 or Kawai K500 .
A German 130 or taller uright will also give a similar tonal effect as
a small grand piano .

Indeed -- it varies a lot by makes. When piano companies get in financial trouble, quality can suffer. The early 1930's were bad for a lot of makes. There are a few that hit the skids in the mid 1980's, etc.

Thanks for all the replies and clarification about the before and after 1950 :-)

I forgot that I know actually a good piano technician. I asked him as well about some of the various statements. The funny thing is that more people I know recommend the same place to buy a piano, and very much all of them don't recommend specifically other piano sellers. He said he has one older grotrian steinweg from 1920, in a good condition. Worth a look. Also the Kawais and yamahas. I might not like the sound of which one I heard, but its good to play some reference pianos regarding the keybed. the tip of a higher upright is priceless :-) thanks a lot!

I spend a few hours today in the local, good, piano store. I tried various pianos like Petrof, Schimmel, Steinway & Sons, Playel, Grotrian Steinweg and August Förster (german version, not Chech).

My preference went to August Förster (116cm) and Grotrian concertino 118 & Canto

I preferred the new pianos.

I am, for first impressions, leaning more to August Förster. It sounds better to my ears when playing different styles and the sustain/timbre is absolutely beautiful.

Oh, one question I had,... The owner of the piano store said he sold more 118cm (46") pianos than 125cm (49"). He said they just sound better. I was under the impression that usually larger is better. (Its how you use them, right? :-P )

Also, i dont read a lot of this brand. My gut sais, rather go for Grotrian Steinweg instead. With this amount of money (16k euros), don't gamble. Do people have experience with them?

August Förster is an excellent piano. You will make no mistakes there. So if that is the piano you liked better, go with it. It is one of the few German piano brands that are family owned. They have a small and dedicated staff. Their head of grand pianos, Frank Israel has worked there for close to 45 years. So they have a lot of experience.

Grotrian Steinweg was sold to Parsons in China, and Schimmel was sold to Pearl River.

Generally, bigger is better. Some people might feel that a certain model has a better balance than another, bigger model from the same company, but I have only observed this once. If you can afford it, the August Förster 125 is a treat. It has a warm, mellow sound, excellent balance, clear and easy to play and control.

Upright actions are a serious compromise in order to gain the space a grand piano would take up. However an advance beginner may never need a grand piano action because adults reaching technical levels beyond advance intermediate is rare and reaching the proper technical level for concert repertoire extremely rare. Just know that uprights are very satisfying instruments that will have inferior actions to many high end digitals. Even so learning on an upright will be much better to a certain point. Then after you mastered a real piano going to a high end digital would have some benefits. The reversed order of starting on digital first then upright is not as optimal for learning because digital is too forgiving and encourages lots of terrible habits.

True. However, I don't feel it has affected the quality of either of their top line of products negatively.



Eh, I would say this tier of European vertical pianos (assuming proper regulation) are going to feel vastly superior in terms of action feel, response, and long-term durability compared to mid- and high-end digitals, save for maybe the Avant Grand, Novus, or (if we're really going crazy) the Alpha. Otherwise, I'd have sold my 130cm European vertical long ago and replaced it with a digital.

Grotrian Steinway ,August Forster, Schimmel are all great pianos.
16 k€ seems a lot for 116 August Forster (I mean it is rather small)
Just my thoughts .I recently checked out the prices of well known European pianos.
Surely Schimmel and Grotrian Steinweg is still made in Germany ?

Schimmel has the following series of pianos
* Konzert (top of the line)
* Classic
* Wilhelm
* Fridolin
Only the two first are made in Germany.

As for Grotrian Steinweg, they are as far as I know still made in Germany as long as they have the Grotrian name.

An August Förster 116 costs from 12K to 19K depending on sub model and finish., this includes 19% VAT in Germany.

A black AF 116E is around 16K.

A Grotrian Steinweg 118 is closer to 17K.

An August Förster is 2 cm wider than the Grotrian 118, so in theory, they should be very comparable in size.
A Sauter Ragazza 122, is also around the same price point (15K-16K). This has a width between Grotrian and AF.

Has the change of ownership changed the quality of the products? Everyone that has been through reorganizations knows that change of ownership has an impact. Normally, some people will lose their job, others want to move on and change to a different company. If it is for better or worse, who knows. But in terms of the insecurity the OP had towards August Förster, I would personally be less worried than for Schimmel and Grotrian.

Having said that, this probably is an accurate description:

Thanks for your reply. I've read that indeed. But also read exactly as you mentioned. I have no pretention (is this the correct word for that?) that I will be at a level that I reach beyond. In that case, I will know that an upright will be more than sufficient. Especially one like these.

Also agree that digital pianos are not the best, especially regarding action. However, the V-Piano is not at all that bad. What I mostly miss is the acoustic qualities... the v-piano is a pretty high-end DP, with even sympathetic string response. Even after playing in the stores, I still will use this thing a lot :-). And it reminds me how really good it actually is. But tuning the DP is essential. But hey,..i still need speakers, and they are the biggest bottleneck really.



Yes, the piano store mentioned this as well. The Grotrian Steinwegs themselves are still made by the same people in the same country. The lower-end versions (Wilhelm & Friedrich) have parts made in china, but shipped to that same factory.


I haven't tried the Steinway & Sons grand they have. Maybe I should try it. I was planning to, but totally forgot. The action of both Grotrian & August were really really good. The Pleyel was imho, not that great. It had this threshold which felt really weird. (Is this the 'escapement' thing?)




You are right.. It was the 118cm one, sorry. Im a little confused, i think its the 116-model regardless, since one up is the 125.
They mentioned something about Schimmel, but it was less positive than the Grotrians or August Forster.



Its indeed the black shiney model. With the classic legs on the sides. If im not mistaken, this is the E version.



Its hard to find all the brands around here. There are plenty of piano stores, but not many of them have the higher-end ones. So I believe it will be a hassle to try them all.

August Forster seems to be still the same as many years ago. Grotrian still has the same people for now... but who knows if I would order from them, it will still be made by the same? So I think I can agree on your statement.

I lean, however, for "just 2k" more to the 125g version instead. Its already a lot of money, but better to be good all at once, than be unhappy with the decision later.