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RD2000 and which software instruments?
#2811805 02/07/19 07:40 AM
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So I was curious, from those of you with RD2000s.... to hear what you run as VST instruments, and for your general experience with the RD2000 as a master controller. I have had one on rental for a couple of weeks, and although it's got lots of sounds, I just can't really enjoy many of them as "instruments". I feel that the overall experience of playing these sounds, is roughly equivalent to the RD 700nx - which is to say, I find myself gravitating to the NX soundsets within the RD2000. I enjoy these sounds, and would probably be happy with them in live "band" situations. Just not for solo or small acoustic duet or ensemble work. I do really like the potential of the keyboard, and the layout of it - and action!


What piano VST's have you tried, and if you don't mind sharing your experiences, I would enjoy hearing about them. Please, let's not make this a bash Roland (or vs other slabs) thread. smile Also has anyone used Omnisphere? I have a demo of Pianoteq, but have to sort out my midi/interface hardware - because my speakers currently are Kef LS50 wireless, and I believe that the speakers are buffered for audio - and will not work without distracting latency issues. Looking at a Babyface pro, headphones monitoring setup. My current computer is an ASUS all in one, with a small solid state drive, and larger HDD. Will these VST programs work without latency? 12 g ram. I have 0 experience with VST's other than the pianoteq demo, but as I mentioned I cannot get it to behave with my speakers

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Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811810 02/07/19 07:58 AM
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If you're talking the bluetooth version of the Kef speakers, I can tell you that bluetooth 4 (and likely 5) have unacceptable latency for doing things like playing piano. Wires are your best friend, unless you can find an RF transmitting solution (for headphones consider Senn RS135). Pianoteq has minimal latency with an asio driver (ASIO4All for most of us). I'd advise using the Pianoteq demo until you can get your latency down. Personally I don't use any fancy amp or preamp, but I do have reasonable speakers, and have fallen in love with sonarworks for calibration. People seem to like the Garritan CFX. I can vouch for the lite form. I like Pianoteq 'cause the sound isn't horrible, and I like short loading times, especially if you want to layer it with something, or switch to another set of sounds... Omnisphere is fun smile It's not for solo piano, though, or optimally realistic anything if you're after the purest most realistic sound. It's sort of a bunch of acoustic based sounds optimized for a single person sitting at a keyboard, with extension far above and below what the names of the patches might suggest, ie choir, or guitar, etc. Won't give you orchestral accuracy, but sure is fun to play... Rather broad soundset (acceptable guitars, to analog synths). Looking forward to 2.6...


U1. VPC-1. Komplete Kontrol 61 1st gen. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft, etc. Two kids on Alfred.
Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811841 02/07/19 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GWILLY
I have a demo of Pianoteq, but have to sort out my midi/interface hardware - because my speakers currently are Kef LS50 wireless, and I believe that the speakers are buffered for audio - and will not work without distracting latency issues. Looking at a Babyface pro, headphones monitoring setup. My current computer is an ASUS all in one, with a small solid state drive, and larger HDD. Will these VST programs work without latency? 12 g ram. I have 0 experience with VST's other than the pianoteq demo, but as I mentioned I cannot get it to behave with my speakers



You shouldn't have any issues with latency if the LS50 Wireless are cabled (I have these along with a Babyface Pro but they are not being used together). That said, there are some issues you'll run into with them as monitors.

First, I do not think you will be able to use their USB connection to the PC since the Babyface Pro will require it to be set as the default output. Second, while you can hook them up to the Babyface Pro with the proper cabling (which should reduce potential latency outside of the LS50W's), just remember that all inputs on the LS50W's send the data/signal through their DSP. There is no way around this. For normal playing, you should be fine, but I would be wary if you want to use them for mixing.

Last edited by DigitalSpace; 02/07/19 09:28 AM.

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Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811859 02/07/19 10:20 AM
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Thank you both for your quick responses! I will try to iron out the latency again on Pianoteq, via the Kef's. However it was so off, I figured it was in the buffer of the speaker. Perhaps I can adjust that via the app.. And yes, from what I am reading, the Garriton CFX Lite might be a good fit for my computer. I am not sure if I have enough ram or SS drive room, to be able to get one of these mega large libraries to behave correctly. But this raises another question. Can I purchase an external SS drive specifically for VST libraries? Or would this introduce latency? Again, I apologize as I have no real experience with Software instruments!

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811862 02/07/19 10:25 AM
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Lots of people use external drives (incl. SSD) for this purpose.
But I always prefer internal. I guess that's not possible for you? Do you have a laptop?

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811912 02/07/19 11:59 AM
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I have some large memory 'streaming from disk pianos' including the Vienna Symphony Library (VSL) latest ones, PianoTeq, and I have a Roland RD 800 the predecessor to the Roland 2000 you are using. I also contract for digital piano development and editing sample sets.

Like you, I like the layout of the Roland because its performance oriented and efficient unlike many products. I use my RD 800 as a controller for live play although I recently found out, it wasn't quite as durable as I thought it would be. I think mine has about 1200 sounds in it of which I use about 1 - 2%. I was disappointed to find that Roland packaged a lot of old mono samples from the 1080 era which if you're clever and only play in certain areas, might get you by for live performance but not in the studio. The worst are the 'guitars' the best are the Rhodes pianos, slow strings and some others. It may be the same with the 2000, I really didn't look at anything except the piano in the 2000. I recorded it at the local store so I could fairly evaluate it in the studio. I didn't find the piano as good as the RD 800 piano for my taste... but I sure love the way the 2000 works.

After editing the RD 800 piano, I still don't use it live unless I forget to bring my laptop which runs PT. The RD 800 piano actually sounds okay for Rock, pop, jaz because it bites and cuts through which I like.... but compared to the PianoTeq... and for the performing I do, I just don't use the Roland piano unless its the only option. These are edited versions of Piano Teq that I use. The editing is necessary especially spectral editing because it eliminates all the unnatural resonances introduced by the raw recording of the samples used for the modeling and the PT effects. Once edited the response of the instrument is beautifully smooth and predictable and won't tear anyone's head off when turned up loud for live and solo performance. The Bluetner is the best model for that and it runs best in version 5.3xx. It does not sound the same in the PT version 6 and up which I don't use for live play. In the studio, I use a Yamaha Montage for a controller although any of the Motifs make great controllers. Yamaha velocity implementation is way different than my RD 800.

As an industry person, I was given the VL labs Ravenscroft and Italian, Addictive Keys, Steinberg Pianos all of which stream from disk... but over the years, I have had great production success with PTeq. My most recent purchase was the new VSL Synchron pianos version 1.1xx at the moment. I was going after improved realism which they offer over the PT. They are nice but currently hog lots of memory but the realism is very good if you like your pianos with lots of embedded ambience in the samples. You do have the option of much less ambience but then you're down to one mic position and the piano was really designed for multiple mic positions with ambience.

I also have a friend who plays with gospel groups in NC. One church has a RD 2000 which he reluctantly plays because he doesn't have to bring any gear... but he doesn't really care for the piano. He also has PT, Nord Stage, Addictive Keys and some Native Instruments pianos. Hope this helps.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811932 02/07/19 12:25 PM
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I have the FP90 (same action). My favourite instrument is VSL Synchron Steinway D.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
MacMacMac #2811937 02/07/19 12:42 PM
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I currently do not have a laptop. Just my 26 inch all-in-one. I will probabably get a laptop down the line for gigs, but just wish to start with what I have.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
wdco #2811944 02/07/19 12:55 PM
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Thank you for taking the time for this reply wdco! I have owned the RD1000, RD700GX, RD700NX, RD800 - and now am renting the 2000. There was a piano sound in the 700GX and the NX's that I didn't mind. The 800 held promise for me, but I was getting lost in the editing, and in the end - parted ways with it. With the RD 2000, I'm back to editing again. Just curious what edits you made in your 800?

In general, I have been finding I gravitate to TYPE 2 , and darker tone character settings. I play with the string resonance.. I have never been skilled with EQ, but I usually prefer the "mellow" versions of the Concert Grands.

That is interesting regarding your preference for an older Pianoteq model. Is it still possible to get that version?

Last edited by GWILLY; 02/07/19 12:59 PM.
Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2811946 02/07/19 01:00 PM
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In that case get an internal SSD. Now is a good time. I waited for years for the prices to drop ... and they did not.
But now the prices are WAAAAY down. Get one.
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I currently do not have a laptop. Just my 26 inch all-in-one. I will probabably get a laptop down the line for gigs, but just wish to start with what I have.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812021 02/07/19 04:08 PM
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GWILLY - Manufacturers are not including samples/models that are free from artifacts, spit from buzzing duplexes especially at the breaks in the piano strings, harmonic ringing and abnormalities that cause unnatural resonances, noises from strings not properly seated on the bridge pins, notes that don't sustain etc. In other words, they're not doing the hard work which is what you do post sampling. Complacency has caused the industry to accept the mantra of "that's the way the real piano is," as if you shouldn't be complaining about a raw product that hasn't been refined. And the problem with unedited means... you have problems in mixes with harmonic ringing, unnatural resonances, unwanted artifacts, buzzing, spit and you won't realize how much you're missing until you slide a well edited piano into place and it works right away and sounds much more professional.

No manufacturer whether Yamaha, Roland, VSL, Garritan, whoever... is actually taking the time to eliminate the things that flaw the product and end up bothering musicians who use the product. So when shopping for a VST piano, find out first if it has per note EQ and how many parametrics you can apply to a single note, and what width can they be narrowed to. For example, VSL has always provided 3 parametrics per note. But many notes need double or triple that amount to clean up the mess. And keep in mind, that any fast moving demo of a piano is useless for evaluation. Ask to send them a midi file and have them send the result back to you. Once a student pointed out a great piano in an old Korg O1w pro/x. I felt really dumb that in the years I worked with that synth, that I never found it! So he went over to the synth and played the demo, and I was very impressed. Of course, I waited until after he had left to check it out and discovered that it was the same old clunky piano that I remember, the difference was that I was dazzled by the beautiful and rapid playing of a sequence that only allowed the small attack portion of the piano samples to play... not the ugly synth wave that followed.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812025 02/07/19 04:13 PM
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GWILLY - It's been a few years since I edited the Roland... but I first went after honky out of place notes and tried substituting samples... which on the RD 800 you had about two or three options as I remember. Most of the options were also flawed so you have to pick the least of the evils. I would end up trying them all and then run some EQ over the one I picked to try and make it work. On the more clunky notes the RD 800 didn't provide a decay/sustain parameter which it desperately needed to get rid of the clunky notes, so if the 2000's the same way, you will be a bit limited. But in the end, I was able to improve it and it sounds okay... but it could have been a much better instrument if good ears had prevailed before it was put into production.

As for the Piano Teq, mine comes up as version 5.7 but in my studio machine its 5.3. And, I've edited and customized the pianos for that version. Unfortunately, once you edit... the sound will change in any other version even if imported correctly ...especially in version 6.x Modeling has been hailed as the future but that depends on more model gurus getting into the picture. In the 90's we experimented with Math modeling of piano dynamics and spectra using Mathamatica but it was easy to see then that over the counter computers at that time would not support a robust piano product.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812029 02/07/19 04:17 PM
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LAPTOPS - I anguished over this for awhile wondering if Apple or PC would be best. I settled on a Toshiba with an i7 and 16 gigs of RAM. Now I have two of them of the same model and have replaced the hard drives with SSDs and they have been flawless. At the time, I could buy 4 Toshibas with the same performance specs for the same money I would pay for one Apple Macbook Pro. I tried to justify the extra expense and chalk it up to reliability and quality but now after years of use, I am very pleased with my decision.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
wdco #2812409 02/08/19 02:15 PM
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Thanks again for your detailed responses wdco... You definitely are a wealth of knowledge! So when you said that your edited Bluethner does not sound right in Pianoteq 6.4 - does that mean that you could not replicate such an edit? Or just that your original edits voice different. I might end up with both the CFX Lite and Pianoteq, and just try to work with the sounds until I can obtain something that inspires me as a player/listener. I guess that is really the whole point of participating in music. If I can get that connected feeling via the RD2000 keyboard through source integration, I will be very sure I have the "instrument" for me. I think the RD2000 is the best nerve center available. Kawaii should equip their slabs with advanced controller functions. Then again, they would be heavier ultimately. I think the RD2000 has nailed the perfect formula if you consider it primarily as a controller first, and with a backup pallet of sounds in case external devices fail. It's just a really great feeling to have such options! smile So I know people tend to polarize around slab pianos, particularly Rolands, but it's never been such a great time to be a keyboardist! Sure I'd like Roland to put cutting edge sounds in it - and a screen and sequencer like the Fantom G would be great - but I am calling it a day with this board! I will just get some great software instruments to marry to it.

Speaking of which, as I have no VST instruments yet - and I think based on this thread and other readings, I will limit my pianos to Pianoteq and Garriton, what other instruments should I be considering for a full range of production options. I think I would like accumulate sound libraries that have a great reputation for CPU efficiency, and stability. I would like synths and world, orchestra, small ensemble, rhythm instruments. I'll build them up over time! Another question would be, are there any sequencing software programs that are well tuned and very stable for live use? I haven't mentioned, but would also consider Tablet versions of the above... Sorry if this is a bit rambly, I am in transit! smile

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812455 02/08/19 05:09 PM
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GWILLY - I could replicate the Bluethner edit but, it would take too much time. It isn't a matter where I could just copy all the parameters of my edited version... because unfortunately, PT changes the dynamics and expression internals of the model in nearly every new version. So I might be able to actually improve the piano with a new edit in 6.4, or maybe it won't be as good... I have no way of knowing. I just know that I have productions using 5.x where the piano is gorgeous, fits beautifully in the mix, the strike is more flexible for adjusting it, and 5.x is less CPU heavy. However, I have edited the Steingraeber in 6.2 and had it sounding great. But when I installed 6.3 and it ran over 6.2, I pulled up the same piano ...and had to start all over again. The Petrof piano is weird and I have it edited in 6.3 so I'll have to keep 6.3 for that. So I don't know if I'll update to 6.4. After working with all of their models, thus far... the Bluethner is about the most forgiving and easiest to work with. It has the fewest harmonic resonances, abnormalities and artifacts but you have to strip out all the effects to make the work easier. And live, I've found no substitute for the beautiful and predictable way PT expresses which makes it a pleasure to play at any volume level... and it never distracts with some boingy note somewhere or a whistling harmonic, or nasal sounding note you can't eliminate.

It's all about not being distracted by the instrument you're playing and if on top of that, if it makes you want to play it and you enjoy the expressivity ...it's a real winner. When I'm behind it and I can barely get through the wall of sound that a group generates... I can immediately signal that I'm going solo ... I can instantly change from a roaring-bold-majestic piano sound to a delicately soft, warm piano, that I can play with easy control, without a soft pedal, without changing a volume control... just by using my fingers the way an instrument is intended to work. Truly I am blessed. I can't do that with any keyboard piano. And the Vienna Pianos are not really designed for live play (too much ambience) but I wanted to see if they will work in orchestral settings in the studio.

Speaking of external devices failing? My Bluethner rig failed after a few notes played at the beginning of a concert!! I was using the Montage as a controller and the night before... thinking it foolish to prepare for something so negative and nearly impossible as having to use the Montage synth piano for the concert... I configured the Montage piano as a backup. So, no one knew when I made the quick transition. BTW, the failure was due to my laptop which if you're not extra careful when you double click on the PT app... it will launch TWO instances of PT and then when you least expect it... one steals the midi stream from the other which sends the Lynx Hilo DAC into nowhere land requiring a reboot which doesn't happen in a concert. I think your ideas are sound and I agree... use the Roland as a controller and backup piano & sounds. Not sure about the CFX lite... you talking about the Garritan or Vienna or someone else? A good friend has the Garritan Lite and its nice and pretty free of weirdness except for a bass note or two which is a shame because otherwise it sounds good and is relatively free of ambience in the samples. The only downside is that you can't fix anything in Garritan because they don't give you the tools.

For production you need good sounds quickly. Omnisphere has good studio quality basses, great slow strings, plenty of pads (maybe too many), some guitar sounds that are usable, etc. For drums, I gravitate toward acoustic, for that maybe Native Instruments modern drums (not bad but you may need some EQ). I've been spoiled by Ocean Way Drums (they went out of business sometime about 5 years ago). But there are plenty of drum products to choose from and others would probably be better at giving you a reference.

How much RAM do you have and what processor? For live play, IF you have great eye-sight... Ableton might be a great way to go. I use Cubase in the studio.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812471 02/08/19 05:38 PM
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Kontakt 11 Ultimate.
Pianoteq
Ravenscroft 275
Ivory, all of them except uprights (played enough crap uprights in clubs during my life! )
Production Voices Platinum Full
Garritan CFX Full
VSL Smart Orchestra.
Acoustic Samples C7 (sucks)
And tons of included instruments in Studio One, Cubase and Samplitude

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812475 02/08/19 05:54 PM
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JazzBow - The Garritan Lite has no note per note editing as I recall... does the full version have note per note and if so, how many filters per note can you have? Asking for a friend... thanks.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812534 02/08/19 10:15 PM
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wdco that would be a big negative. The only difference is the extra mike positions. By the way thanks for your interesting insights. I will call you when I get back in town. MooganDavid


Rme BabyFace Pro, Dynaudio BM6-ll, Garritan CFX Full, Vienna Imperial, Truekeys American Grand, Modern U, Cantabile Solo 2, Hauptwerk Pipe Organ Vst, VB3 Hammond Vst and SPIN Leslie Vst, Yamaha CP33 and Novation Impulse 61
Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
wdco #2812619 02/09/19 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wdco
JazzBow - The Garritan Lite has no note per note editing as I recall... does the full version have note per note and if so, how many filters per note can you have? Asking for a friend... thanks.


As far as I know it does not. As MooganDavid says, the difference is more mic positions. Even with Pianoteq, which is probably the most tweakable program in the bunch I've never found the need to tweak individual notes though. If there is something about a particular note that bothers me I'll adjust my playing to compensate or if it's a matter of brightness or dullness I'll adjust eq . That's me though. i can see where this would be important to some players.

Re: RD2000 and which software instruments?
GWILLY #2812826 02/09/19 06:39 PM
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JazzBow but how can you adjust your playing to compensate for a note that's either too bright or too loud? If you do use the global eq you might help an individual note but then it might screw up others that were fine so I think I know what wdco means that it really wouldn't be that much more trouble for the developer to include individual note editing even if some users like me don't want to get that involved because it does take a lot of work. MooganDavid


Rme BabyFace Pro, Dynaudio BM6-ll, Garritan CFX Full, Vienna Imperial, Truekeys American Grand, Modern U, Cantabile Solo 2, Hauptwerk Pipe Organ Vst, VB3 Hammond Vst and SPIN Leslie Vst, Yamaha CP33 and Novation Impulse 61
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