Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
98 registered members (Álvaro, anotherscott, beeboss, Aimer, 25 invisible), 3,076 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Piano VSTi with mild attack? #2810885
02/05/19 08:14 AM
02/05/19 08:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Hello,

Most plugins, which I know, have a sharp attack related to hard, new, or maybe ironed felt tips of the hammers. Mild sounds are heard only in low velocities or in una corda mode. On the other hand, there exist acoustics with a mild attack even in F to FFF diapason, which provide specific timbres.

I tried, without success, to change parameters of some plugins (Ivory ACD, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan CFX, TrueKeys) in order to get milder sounds. So far the conclusion is that this is impossible, but maybe I miss something.

Are there high end plugins (with professional damper and una corda pedals) with milder sounds? I guess that only Alicia Keys piano has such effect, but not sure this plugin supports a professional pedal work.

Opinions?

Last edited by Andrew_G; 02/05/19 08:18 AM.
(ad) SWEETWATER Lowest Prices
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810891
02/05/19 08:22 AM
02/05/19 08:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
Not sure whether it qualifies as "high end", but I think the Art Vista Malmsjo sounds like it has mellow forte attacks:
http://www.artvista.net/malmsjo.html

I'm sure there are some others that allow the lower velocity layer samples to be mapped to the higher velocities, but I can't remember which ones have this. It's very easy to achieve in Pianoteq, btw.

Greg.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: sullivang] #2810902
02/05/19 08:44 AM
02/05/19 08:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by sullivang
I'm sure there are some others that allow the lower velocity layer samples to be mapped to the higher velocities


I tried this, but reducing the number of velocity layers heavily reduces the timbre gamut of the instrument. I also tried to modify the timbre shift; no good results so far.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810906
02/05/19 08:56 AM
02/05/19 08:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
FWIW, the Embertone has the mapping (the Dynamics setting, in the Response section) - demo at time 14:15 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLhZz80yOZY
I don't have this instrument so I can't say how well it works, or how it compares to any you have tried with the same feature.

Greg.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: sullivang] #2810926
02/05/19 10:07 AM
02/05/19 10:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by sullivang
FWIW, the Embertone has the mapping (the Dynamics setting, in the Response section) - demo at time 14:15 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLhZz80yOZY
I don't have this instrument so I can't say how well it works, or how it compares to any you have tried with the same feature. Greg.


Thanks for the example sullivang. They make really beautiful and mild sounds. Still, they are cinematic-style ones. I am looking for more natural piano sounds for the explicit (as they call it) solo piano work, with more rich timbre variations produced by velocity changes and pedals -- a la Synthogy ACG or Garritan CFX, but with milder attack.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810931
02/05/19 10:18 AM
02/05/19 10:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,194
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
9000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,194
Raleigh, North Carolina
Can this be achieved with Pianoteq? It has hammer adjustments galore.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810946
02/05/19 11:20 AM
02/05/19 11:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 88
A
Alex C Offline
Full Member
Alex C  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 88
Something like this?


Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810960
02/05/19 11:58 AM
02/05/19 11:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Still not sure about Pianoteq: between the "modeleans" and "sampleans" camps I instinctively belong to "sampleans", as probably all those who raised with a good acoustic in their childhood. Furthermore, every artificial effect (reverb, resonance, timbre shift, shimmer etc) is immediately recognized and subconsciously rejected however good it is implemented.

CinePiano sounds very good! Will try to check it in more detail, but the artificial effects here are recognized too.

I need something for releasing high quality impressionism-style piano works.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2810970
02/05/19 12:20 PM
02/05/19 12:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,194
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
9000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,194
Raleigh, North Carolina
I'm in the sample camp, too. I only suggested Pianoteq because I don't know of any sampled piano that has a setting for hammer hardness.
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Still not sure about Pianoteq: between the "modeleans" and "sampleans" camps I instinctively belong to "sampleans", as probably all those who raised with a good acoustic in their childhood. Furthermore, every artificial effect (reverb, resonance, timbre shift, shimmer etc) is immediately recognized and subconsciously rejected however good it is implemented.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: MacMacMac] #2810981
02/05/19 12:37 PM
02/05/19 12:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't know of any sampled piano that has a setting for hammer hardness.

I suspect this is impossible. The sampled piano should have soft hammers.


Last edited by Andrew_G; 02/05/19 12:39 PM.
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811008
02/05/19 01:23 PM
02/05/19 01:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,011
Richmond, BC, Canada
C
Charles Cohen Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Charles Cohen  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,011
Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
. . .

I need something for releasing high quality impressionism-style piano works.


. . . An acoustic piano, in a proper studio, with professional microphone management ?

You seem to be rejecting all the digital alternatives.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2811016
02/05/19 01:43 PM
02/05/19 01:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

. . . An acoustic piano, in a proper studio, with professional microphone management ?
I need to do a post-editing in MIDI form. Today this is conceivable only with digital.

Last edited by Andrew_G; 02/05/19 01:45 PM.
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811045
02/05/19 03:30 PM
02/05/19 03:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
They make really beautiful and mild sounds. Still, they are cinematic-style ones. I am looking for more natural piano sounds for the explicit (as they call it) solo piano work, with more rich timbre variations produced by velocity changes and pedals -- a la Synthogy ACG or Garritan CFX, but with milder attack.


Is the Embertone too cinematic overall, or is it only that demo with the extreme emphasis on the lower sample velocities? If the latter, I'm just wondering whether a milder mapping might be worth experimenting with.

Greg.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811098
02/05/19 06:22 PM
02/05/19 06:22 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 678
K
karvala Offline
500 Post Club Member
karvala  Offline
500 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 678
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by sullivang
FWIW, the Embertone has the mapping (the Dynamics setting, in the Response section) - demo at time 14:15 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLhZz80yOZY
I don't have this instrument so I can't say how well it works, or how it compares to any you have tried with the same feature. Greg.


Thanks for the example sullivang. They make really beautiful and mild sounds. Still, they are cinematic-style ones. I am looking for more natural piano sounds for the explicit (as they call it) solo piano work, with more rich timbre variations produced by velocity changes and pedals -- a la Synthogy ACG or Garritan CFX, but with milder attack.


Two obvious possibilities:-

(1) Ivory Studio Grands Steinway B - substantially milder than the ACD. It's a relatively ambient and cloudy mic, I personally don't really like the timbre but you might, but it does offer excellent dynamic control.

(2) The VI Labs TrueKeys American Grand. This has several mics but is fundamentally close and dry. The criticism of this is precisely that it sounds too mild; the characteristic Steinway sound is only just evident and the hammers sound like they're not yet fully cut in. A bit less naturalistic in sound than (1), but a lot more controlled and even.

Two very different style instruments, but both relatively mild in terms of attack.

BTW, the Galaxy Vintage D might also be worth checking out; that's not particularly bright or cutting.

And finally, if you want something a bit different, try The Gentleman. That is so mild it sounds essentially muffled! An upright piano sound, though, but might be to your liking.

Last edited by karvala; 02/05/19 06:26 PM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811140
02/05/19 08:29 PM
02/05/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
C
Craig Richards Offline
Full Member
Craig Richards  Offline
Full Member
C

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
A few suggestions which may fit your brief:

1. Imperfect Samples Walnut Steinway D
2. East West Quantum Leap Steinway D or Bosendorfer Imperial 290 (Gold version would be fine, which has Player Perspective mics)
3. 8dio 1969 Steinway D (has a heavier piano attack tone than many other sampled pianos)
4. Native Instruments 'The Maverick' 1905 Bechstein Grand (with tone & dynamics dialled back a little and the virtual lid closed)

Last edited by Craig Richards; 02/05/19 08:29 PM.

Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811141
02/05/19 08:33 PM
02/05/19 08:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
C
Craig Richards Offline
Full Member
Craig Richards  Offline
Full Member
C

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
Here's an track of mine using the 8dio 1969 Steinway as a reference:

http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/track/d8d1c187aac8402a

Last edited by Craig Richards; 02/05/19 08:33 PM.

Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811150
02/05/19 08:54 PM
02/05/19 08:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
Craig: you're kidding, surely. The very first note sounds like Elton John. (I love it - but it sounds nothing like what I thought the OP wanted ;^) ;^)

Greg.

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: sullivang] #2811222
02/06/19 02:06 AM
02/06/19 02:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
C
Craig Richards Offline
Full Member
Craig Richards  Offline
Full Member
C

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by sullivang
Craig: you're kidding, surely. The very first note sounds like Elton John. (I love it - but it sounds nothing like what I thought the OP wanted ;^) ;^)

Greg.


Hmmm - yeah you're right. I guess what I was thinking was it has a 'heavy hammer' attack tone (not necessarily mild) at higher velocities. I think the only way to achieve what the OP is after with sampled pianos would be to roll of the top end with a low pass filter, or as others suggested, experiment with limiting the samples which are triggered at high velocities (in the sampled pianos which allow this).

The Native Instrument pianos have Lid Open, Half Closed and Closed options which achieves a pretty good simulation of taming the harsher frequencies, whilst still maintaining dynamic range. This works well on 'The Maverick' in particular.


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Craig Richards] #2811258
02/06/19 07:13 AM
02/06/19 07:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
A
Andrew_G Offline OP
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline OP
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Here's an track of mine using the 8dio 1969 Steinway as a reference:

http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/track/d8d1c187aac8402a
Nice track, with a good combination of piano with other sounds, and with somewhat minimalistic features.

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions to check!

Re: Piano VSTi with mild attack? [Re: Andrew_G] #2811260
02/06/19 07:26 AM
02/06/19 07:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 88
A
Alex C Offline
Full Member
Alex C  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 88
Andrew G, do you know of a commercial recording that has the piano sound you are looking for? This could really help.

Last edited by Alex C; 02/06/19 07:27 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Seeking an inexpensive external audio interface for Linux
by Tyrone Slothrop. 09/17/19 05:19 PM
Should I buy this Steinway Model B 1928
by bonedoctor. 09/17/19 04:11 PM
what's the best way to record my digital piano?
by Álvaro. 09/17/19 04:10 PM
Knuckle position and leverage
by jsilva. 09/17/19 04:03 PM
got me an MP11se :)
by brogh. 09/17/19 02:39 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,079
Posts2,870,488
Members94,437
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1