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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2809872 02/02/19 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Keselo
I start at BPM = 30 (quarter note, in the case of movement 1)

Since movement 1 is in cut-time, wouldn't one want a beat/pulse on the half note?

It should be at a tempo at which you feel comfortable. I don't care about a piece being in cut or common time. If I need a Quarter note every two seconds, I'll put it at 30. It's the same as putting it on 15 for a half note, but that's very difficult to play with.

The metronome app that I use allows you to subdivide your beats. When it's between 25 and 45, I have to subdivide in such a way that there's a softer tick in the middle, otherwise I lose track of the main beat. I could put the metronome on 15, but that achieves nothing more than having to subdivide even more (at 1/4 and 3/4, as well as 2/4).

Now, once I'm at a more comfortable tempo, let's say half note = 50, that's when I'll set the metronome to account for the cut time. So I'll go back from 100 (quarter note) to 50 (half note) and continue to whatever tempo I want to achieve.

The metronome is nothing but a tool which is used for, among other things, cranking up the tempo. As such, I'll use it in the way that's most convenient, not the 'musically correct' way per se.


I've started playing January 2017, Nothing is too easy is where I keep track of my progress.

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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2809873 02/02/19 02:54 PM
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Pieces like this make me wonder how the grading system works. I searched this piece on Piano syllabus:
http://pianosyllabus.com/detail.php?ref=9986

How on earth is this a grade 3 piece? It sounds much more advanced.

Nice idea to make a study group Tyrone, keep them coming!
In this case I don't feel I'm up for the task. But I'll enjoy following this:)

Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Keselo #2809875 02/02/19 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Keselo
I don't care about a piece being in cut or common time.

I've been recently working with my teacher on getting the upbeat and downbeat right on pieces since for me, I've really never thought about that before - or at least not much. It seems the main difference between 2/2 and 2/4 (or 4/4) is where the upbeats and downbeats are. The descriptions I cut&paste above seem to also be focused more on this difference. That said, there should be no reason how you set a metronome should affect where you place your downbeats vs upbeats and I'd agree your point about convenience does make logical sense to set the metronome the most comfortable way and just deal with the rhythm & metrical structure separately from the ticks and tocks.


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Ido #2809878 02/02/19 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ido
Pieces like this make me wonder how the grading system works. I searched this piece on Piano syllabus:
http://pianosyllabus.com/detail.php?ref=9986

How on earth is this a grade 3 piece? It sounds much more advanced.

Nice idea to make a study group Tyrone, keep them coming!
In this case I don't feel I'm up for the task. But I'll enjoy following this:)

Many syllabi seem, at least to me, to undervalue the difficulty of playing fast. Other than that, the piece is not overly complex compared to other grade 3 material. The right hand is very linear, just playing a melodic line throughout, and the accompaniment is very basic. Some Alberti Bass, some broken chords, some harmonic intervals. What makes this piece tricky is the hand movement (which is not very rapid) and the tempo at which it must be played.

If I compare this Sonatina to some other Grade 3 material I've learned (Schumann Op. 68 No. 1 / Grechaninov Op. 98 Nos. 2 + 6 + 9 / Gurlitt Op. 205 No. 1 / Kabalevsky Op. 39 No. 20 / Attwood Sonatina in G Major) it seems pretty much of equal difficulty A lot of the pieces have more going on, but are not to be played as fast.

I also think they take into account how easy this Sonatina by Clementi is to memorize. For some reason, that's something many grading systems seem to value.


I've started playing January 2017, Nothing is too easy is where I keep track of my progress.

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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Ido #2809879 02/02/19 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ido
Pieces like this make me wonder how the grading system works. I searched this piece on Piano syllabus:
http://pianosyllabus.com/detail.php?ref=9986

How on earth is this a grade 3 piece? It sounds much more advanced.

Haha. Maybe that belongs on what is an easy piece that sounds hard thread wink

I find it not really hard at all when played relatively slowly. It's tempo and making the runs even is what makes it harder for me. At faster tempo, I start missing notes. My fingers also lose the sense of the beat and sometimes run faster and just jumble the beat.

EDIT: I think the word I was looking for was "control". At faster tempos on this piece, I lose control of my fingers.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Keselo #2809884 02/02/19 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Keselo
I also think they take into account how easy this Sonatina by Clementi is to memorize. For some reason, that's something many grading systems seem to value.

There is a lot of repetition. Huge amount. I am pleasantly surprised that the last one third of movement 2 seems to be a recapitulation of some of the earlier notes/parts. Less to learn. wink


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
bSharp(C)yclist #2809885 02/02/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I would set the metronome here to the half note, so somewhere between 80 and 100. If I set it to the quarter note, then I'd have to set it to 160 to 200. That's too fast for me to follow. But if you are practicing slow, then setting to the quarter note would work.

I'm inspired to try recording all 3 movements at one time. Perhaps I'll give that a try smile

That would be my goal too. I have a ways to go on that though since movement 1 still is giving me a headache with its relentless, "take no prisoners" tempo, and even starting movement 3 is still in the future for me. Also the two big repeats in movement 1 just give more more opportunities to trip over my fingers wink


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
bSharp(C)yclist #2809899 02/02/19 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
All 3 movements are in RCM 3, here are the suggested tempos.

I. Half note = 88 - 100
II. Quarter note = 66 - 72
III. Dotted quarter = 66 - 72

I've heard from others and teachers that they are a bit high, particularly #2. Nothing wrong with playing them slower. As for trills in #2, I find that using 4/2 in bar 21 is easier.

Just for by way of comparison,

Schirmer uses:
I. Allegro (half note = 80 - 100)
II. Andante (quarter note = 54 - 69)
III. Vivace (dotted quarter = 69 - 80)

and in the Youtube reference performances in my first post above, Dr. Huckleberry uses:
I. Half note = 107
II. Quarter note = 66
III. Dotted quarter = 72


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Ido #2809926 02/02/19 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ido
Pieces like this make me wonder how the grading system works. I searched this piece on Piano syllabus:
http://pianosyllabus.com/detail.php?ref=9986

How on earth is this a grade 3 piece? It sounds much more advanced.

Nice idea to make a study group Tyrone, keep them coming!
In this case I don't feel I'm up for the task. But I'll enjoy following this:)


The Pianist's Guide to Standard Teaching and Performance Literature (by Magrath) pegs it at a level 4, which is the book's own idea of Level 4, on par with easier pieces in Anna Mag Notebook, Gurlitt Album for the Young Op. 140, and Tchaikovsky Album for the Young Op. 39. Definitely not a beginner piece! I've always loved this one!


Lisa

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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810028 02/02/19 09:46 PM
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This is the link someone posted for this song, I agree it is difficult and I have been playing for 5 years. This would take me maybe the rest of my life to play it correctly.

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b5/IMSLP29868-PMLP06617-Clementi_Op36_Schirmer.pdf


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
DFSRN #2810032 02/02/19 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DFSRN
This is the link someone posted for this song, I agree it is difficult and I have been playing for 5 years. This would take me maybe the rest of my life to play it correctly.

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b5/IMSLP29868-PMLP06617-Clementi_Op36_Schirmer.pdf

OK Deb. You made me curious. What are some aspects of technical correctness that you think would take a lifetime to learn for Sonatina No. 1? Because certainly it isn't the notes.

And yes, this was the exact IMSLP edition I linked in my first post in the thread smile


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810056 02/02/19 11:02 PM
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I tend to agree with Deb that the piece may be a little tougher than billed. This piece in particular haunts me to this day, as I just couldn't get the speed and accuracy together when I tried it at around 1-2 yrs in. I actually ran through it after you posted and as I have another 2 yrs under my belt, and, I can possibly do it better now but have other projects on my plate.

For me, the main trouble is speed. I'm just not a fast player. Maybe, as some suggest, it will come with time and experience. However, I've really grown into the Romantic genre because it's passionate and forgiving from a timing standpoint; a little rubato here and there to collect myself fits right in. The Classical genre is less forgiving in this respect; these pieces need to be fast and accurate.

That said, my best recommendation is to practice it very slowly, until the notes and fingering are automatic, only then and only gradually picking up the speed. If the jumps give you trouble, as they did for me, just practice them over and over, a measure or two at a time, until you can land them reliably before picking up the speed.

For me personally, as I still am filling in the gaps, I am going back to Bach.....I opened the Anna Magdelena book, I'm going to go through it quickly, then the Little Preludes, and the 2 and then 3 part inventions, and so on. The relevance to this thread is the genre and type of precision required; I think I lack that and before moving further with my genre of choice, should probably get more serious about these skills.


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810065 02/02/19 11:36 PM
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In terms of the formal study of this Sonatina No. 1, I thought I would post three analyses. But before that, I will note that the pianoTV tutorial in the first post of this thread, Allysia also does a high-level analysis of all three movements as accompanied by her notes and diagrams here: 2:30-6:35 (Mvt 1), 10:50-12:25 (Mvt 2), and 16:00-17:10 (Mvt 3).

So here are the three written analyses of Sonatina No. 1: .


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810068 02/03/19 12:06 AM
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Great finds.....that thread by Richard is going to take some perusing! And I also enjoy Allysia's videos.


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
cmb13 #2810077 02/03/19 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
I tend to agree with Deb that the piece may be a little tougher than billed. This piece in particular haunts me to this day, as I just couldn't get the speed and accuracy together when I tried it at around 1-2 yrs in. I actually ran through it after you posted and as I have another 2 yrs under my belt, and, I can possibly do it better now but have other projects on my plate.

For me, the main trouble is speed. I'm just not a fast player. Maybe, as some suggest, it will come with time and experience. However, I've really grown into the Romantic genre because it's passionate and forgiving from a timing standpoint; a little rubato here and there to collect myself fits right in. The Classical genre is less forgiving in this respect; these pieces need to be fast and accurate.

That said, my best recommendation is to practice it very slowly, until the notes and fingering are automatic, only then and only gradually picking up the speed. If the jumps give you trouble, as they did for me, just practice them over and over, a measure or two at a time, until you can land them reliably before picking up the speed.


It is amazing what some experience and practice (and a comfortable instrument) can do. I used to think I cannot ever play fast. Turns out I can (relatively speaking of course), it just takes ages to get the piece well enough into my memory.

What I have noticed is that there's a limit to what slow practice can do. At some point one just needs to practice playing fast so that the mind gets used to it. Maybe gradual speeding up works too, but I found it more efficient just to up the speed and practice getting through longer and longer sections. This applies to the mental problems with playing fast. If one has proper technique, the fingers can if the mind just can keep up. In fast playing the details in the piece must be replaced by larger thinking patterns because you simply don't gave time to think about everything you do.

Back to this piece:
I remember that the 3rd movement was actually the easiest. Not that hard to memorize and after finding good fingering it became automatic quite soon.

Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
cmb13 #2810366 02/03/19 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
I tend to agree with Deb that the piece may be a little tougher than billed. This piece in particular haunts me to this day, as I just couldn't get the speed and accuracy together when I tried it at around 1-2 yrs in.


I could not get it up to speed either, but that never bothered me. Although the difficulty is subjective (Sonatina No 2 is the killer), I found there was a sharp jump in difficulty between the early grades overall. What was a challenge for me, and will be for any early beginner, was there was little or no technique really to draw from. I hadn't started scales or any technical exercises at that point, could not count, and my left hand always sounded like it was just doing it's own thing. This is a great piece to learn and I hope everyone learning it in this group get as much out of it as I did.

Originally Posted by cmb13
For me, the main trouble is speed. I'm just not a fast player. Maybe, as some suggest, it will come with time and experience.


I have a hard time with pieces that require a bit of speed, it just does not come naturally. However I spend a long time on a small amount of pieces these days, (for exams), and time, immersion, and a bit of fanaticism seems to be the answer.


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810447 02/04/19 07:08 AM
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Just a brief comment on Alyssia's analysis...

She says the cadences are every four bars. Then she highlights the first one at the start of M4. I think that's wrong. Back in 2012 I thought the first phrase ended at the first beat of M5 and in the home key - standard practise for a four bar phrase and that's where I stop if I sing it. Today I think it's the second beat of M4 and I use the final measure to back this up. (The second half of M4 is an upbeat for M5). This means the first phrase finishes on the dominant G - an imperfect cadence and not what would be expected at that time.

Where's the second cadence? Is it the start of M8? It doesn't feel like it to me - I can't stop there when I'm singing it. M8 feels like a continuation towards an expected cadence at the start of M9 that never happens. M9 sounds like a new idea in G Major but the next measure, M10, repeating the pattern of M8, shows the G major scale actually begins the second half.

If I sing it I can stop, again after three and a half bars, by singing a G on the second beat of M8 instead of the four note continuation. Has Clementi used a three and a half bar phrase or has he overlapped the end of his phrases with start of the next and reduced the number of bars in the exposition by one to fifteen instead of a more standard sixteen? I'm intrigued.

Alyssia says the development begins in G Major. I think that's wrong as well. The development section begins on the chord of G Major but it's in the key of C Minor (the B natural is the sharpened seventh).

I thought this movement was the most trite of all in this collection of six sonatinas and my least favourite. I referred to the opening theme back in 2012 as the bugle call. Today I think of it more as a nudge, nudge gesture, like 'Hey, d'you know what?!'

After all this time, I've been playing this one since the seventies, I still find this piece fascinating.

I think Diane Hidy has the best interpretation of all of these sonatinas. I thought so in 2012 and haven't heard anything since to change my mind.

Sonatina No. 1 played by Diane Hidy


Richard
Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810448 02/04/19 07:11 AM
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Hi everyone, I'm working on this too & it'll be fun to be part of a group.
So this was assigned by my teacher a little under 3 weeks ago. I have fortnightly lessons, so the first fortnight I was asked to do the 1st and 2nd mvts HS, and to resist trying to do HT (I've a good bit of other material on the go too).
This fortnight I'm working on putting the 1st mvt HT and the 3rd mvt HS. I'm doing a bit on the 2nd mvt too but it's down the priority list. Per my teacher, and this seems to be borne out by what people are saying here, the 2nd movement will be the easiest to bring to fluency so it makes more sense to prioritise the other parts first,
Managing higher tempo with control is a real weakness for me, which again points to the 1st and 3rd mvts needing more time to get into decent shape.


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810628 02/04/19 04:01 PM
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Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I've just been graduated by my (new this year) teacher to Op 36 No 2. I did really enjoy playing the first one, though!

I made it about my cat.

Movement 1: Patrolling the Garden
Movement 2: Sleeping in the Sun
Movement 3: The Catnip Mouse

Worked for me laugh


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Re: Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1
Tyrone Slothrop #2810710 02/04/19 06:27 PM
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Lol! Crazy cat lady above.

Jk very creative!


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