Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
71 registered members (beeboss, aphexdisklavier, Animisha, ACSlater, Barjazz, AlphaBravoCharlie, barbaram, akc42, 18 invisible), 905 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: pold] #2809975
02/02/19 07:45 PM
02/02/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,405
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
8000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,405
Raleigh, North Carolina
This is sad. But it's quite true.
Originally Posted by pold
The best bang for the buck is still the VPC1 (or MP11SE) with a VST. Sorry DPs, but you suck, and after 8 years you can't even manage to match the Galaxy Vintage D.

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2809986
02/02/19 08:08 PM
02/02/19 08:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,519
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
3000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,519
Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by dmd
As far as turning the cables around …. I may have …. inadvertently …. who knows.

Almost positive CyberGene was making a joke about the cable. (CyberGene, you were making a joke, weren't you? confused laugh )

Well... laugh But, still. Imagine if the cable is semiconductor. OK, probably a semi-semiconductor then. You get the idea. You never know. It’s best to trust your ears! wink


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: RodrigoPon] #2809987
02/02/19 08:10 PM
02/02/19 08:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by dmd
Through my headphones, the sound of my MP11SE (and ES8) sound terrific.

I just cannot get that sound through external speakers.



Your Focal CMS 40 have way less bass than your Sennheiser HD 555. Bass (and specially mid bass) tends to "warm up" the sound, make it feel "darker" and less detailed. Maybe that's one of the reasons you don't like your speakers. Maybe you need monitors with bigger woofer for more bass, the focals you have are only 4 inch. Just a thought.


Thanks. It is a consideration.

However, note that one of the first things I do when modifying a VST (Pianoteq) or a sound on my MP11SE is to reduce the bass volume and eq.


Now, that may not mean that speakers with more bass capability wouldn't help (headphones have more bass capability) in some "mysterious" way so it is still a consideration.

Any idea is considered at this point.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2809996
02/02/19 08:40 PM
02/02/19 08:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 722
Atlanta, GA
J
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jake Jackson  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 722
Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by dmd
Through my headphones, the sound of my MP11SE (and ES8) sound terrific.

I just cannot get that sound through external speakers.



Your Focal CMS 40 have way less bass than your Sennheiser HD 555. Bass (and specially mid bass) tends to "warm up" the sound, make it feel "darker" and less detailed. Maybe that's one of the reasons you don't like your speakers. Maybe you need monitors with bigger woofer for more bass, the focals you have are only 4 inch. Just a thought.


Thanks. It is a consideration.

However, note that one of the first things I do when modifying a VST (Pianoteq) or a sound on my MP11SE is to reduce the bass volume and eq.


Now, that may not mean that speakers with more bass capability wouldn't help (headphones have more bass capability) in some "mysterious" way so it is still a consideration.

Any idea is considered at this point.





Even if you often turn down the bass, I would still agree that you need larger cones to get the best out of Pianoteq. In any case, the sound coming from headphones with never be the same as the sound that comes from monitors. Two completely different animals. That's why people, in creating a mix, listen both through monitors and through headphones.

Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: Jake Jackson] #2810023
02/02/19 09:44 PM
02/02/19 09:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
In any case, the sound coming from headphones with never be the same as the sound that comes from monitors.


That is true, apparently.

The question I have is ….

Will anything approximate the sound the comes through headphones ?

Or is that just a fantasy perpetrated by the sound industry to generate sales ?

Or is it possible to do but just so encumbered by such a multitude of variables so as to render it basically impossible to achieve by one without an sound engineering degree ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: Jake Jackson] #2810024
02/02/19 09:44 PM
02/02/19 09:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 55
Argentina
R
RodrigoPon Offline
Full Member
RodrigoPon  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 55
Argentina
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by dmd
Through my headphones, the sound of my MP11SE (and ES8) sound terrific.

I just cannot get that sound through external speakers.



Your Focal CMS 40 have way less bass than your Sennheiser HD 555. Bass (and specially mid bass) tends to "warm up" the sound, make it feel "darker" and less detailed. Maybe that's one of the reasons you don't like your speakers. Maybe you need monitors with bigger woofer for more bass, the focals you have are only 4 inch. Just a thought.


Thanks. It is a consideration.

However, note that one of the first things I do when modifying a VST (Pianoteq) or a sound on my MP11SE is to reduce the bass volume and eq.


Now, that may not mean that speakers with more bass capability wouldn't help (headphones have more bass capability) in some "mysterious" way so it is still a consideration.

Any idea is considered at this point.





Even if you often turn down the bass, I would still agree that you need larger cones to get the best out of Pianoteq. In any case, the sound coming from headphones with never be the same as the sound that comes from monitors. Two completely different animals. That's why people, in creating a mix, listen both through monitors and through headphones.


+1.

Expecting your monitors to sound as your headphones is unreallistic. But, I'm still pretty sure that you should get a sound you like with them.

Also as stated above, it never hurts to have as low a possible bass extention, even if you use to turn the bass down (flat frequency extention of course, otherwise boominess can ruin everything). Maybe the warm frequencies are in that low region your current monitors can't reproduce.

Perhaps it's worth a shot trying monitors with bigger woofers somewhere, or buying and sending them back if you don't like them if that's possible.

Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810054
02/02/19 10:59 PM
02/02/19 10:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,289
Varna
N
newer player Offline
1000 Post Club Member
newer player  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,289
Varna
My bookshelf speakers and headphones sound similar to me. That is probably a function of: setting specific audio goals, the room, my personal preference for a "type of sound," and plenty of luck.

The speakers have "improved" crossovers and are connected to a class a/b amp; both are decent quality and were inexpensive when I purchased them a decade ago. I spent a lot of time measuring and setting up the room. Luckily the room sounds pretty good on its own so that was more of a vocational education than anything. You can search my posts for simple speaker setup and room tweaks that worked for me. This is more voodoo than any science.

The Sony headphones are open-backed, have big 70mm drivers and some odd-ball resistor network. They sound very similar to speakers but are less visceral than loudspeakers are, particularly for loud music with lots of low-frequency content. Alas, these were only sold in Asia.

PD - I also use a big subwoofer on occasion; that wakes things up and is a lot of fun. The headphones don't play in that arena. The subwoofer was expensive and very difficult to setup properly (it is easy to plug in but difficult to integrate into the room). If you go down that path you might research such impact as: proper placement, house curves, the old loudness buttons for low volume listening, and maybe dropping the "volume" a bit after set up so the sub disappears into the room. For piano, where there is not so much low frequency material, larger speakers/monitors might just be easier than smaller speakers & subs.

This gets expensive and complex and time consuming...fast.

Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810080
02/03/19 12:54 AM
02/03/19 12:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 230
PA
puremusic Offline
Full Member
puremusic  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 230
PA
What are the differences between your headphone sounds and the speakers you're looking for?


Roland FP-90 - Touchkeys - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

whitepianos.blogspot.com
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: puremusic] #2810090
02/03/19 01:22 AM
02/03/19 01:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by puremusic
What are the differences between your headphone sounds and the speakers you're looking for?



Hopefully, no differences.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: CyberGene] #2810132
02/03/19 07:17 AM
02/03/19 07:17 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 669
K
karvala Offline
500 Post Club Member
karvala  Offline
500 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 669
What was the atmospheric pressure like when you tried? And can you confirm you didn't try it on a Thursday? These things only work on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as long as Venus isn't too close to Mars that is. laugh


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810162
02/03/19 09:53 AM
02/03/19 09:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,670
Hobart, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,670
Hobart, Australia
Couldn't this have just continued in the other thread?

Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810534
02/04/19 12:15 PM
02/04/19 12:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 523
America
J
Jitin Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jitin  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 523
America
Originally Posted by dmd
Yes, it was "warmed" (as in temperature) up. LOL …..

As far as turning the cables around …. I may have …. inadvertently …. who knows.

I didn't realize that was important.

Nothing in the manual about that.

If that is necessary they had better put it in the instructions or they (and myself) will just have to suffer the consequences.


DMD, you should just get a real piano


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810544
02/04/19 12:45 PM
02/04/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
A
Alexander Borro Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Alexander Borro  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
What happened to your spacestation that went only down to 100Hz but you were really enthusiastic about ( which to me seems very strange) ?.

You also liked the ES8 internal speakers, while they may be okay I can't follow why they are okay and a set of monitor such as your focals are falling short. I am completely lost about your journey and the rational why you like A but not B. confused

It is a fact that is hard to beet any headphone even at modest price for detail/ resolution,that will be one factor for you perhaps.

Have you tried to measure the room and then EQ your speaker to be like the hd555 perhaps ? Personally I think eq here on the forum is often overrated and hyped as if "flat" is everything, it is not going to make one speaker sound the same as the next in any case, but it will help with some issues, perhaps add some room treatment if possible.

Anyway, you wont get the extension out of the 4 inch cms, but there again if you were happy with the spacestation bass extension who knows ... I am once again lost.

It's like a meandering river laugh

.. but I hope you work it out .. good luck.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/04/19 12:46 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810575
02/04/19 01:50 PM
02/04/19 01:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 55
Argentina
R
RodrigoPon Offline
Full Member
RodrigoPon  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 55
Argentina
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
What happened to your spacestation that went only down to 100Hz but you were really enthusiastic about ( which to me seems very strange) ?.

You also liked the ES8 internal speakers, while they may be okay I can't follow why they are okay and a set of monitor such as your focals are falling short. I am completely lost about your journey and the rational why you like A but not B. confused

It is a fact that is hard to beet any headphone even at modest price for detail/ resolution,that will be one factor for you perhaps.

Have you tried to measure the room and then EQ your speaker to be like the hd555 perhaps ? Personally I think eq here on the forum is often overrated and hyped as if "flat" is everything, it is not going to make one speaker sound the same as the next in any case, but it will help with some issues, perhaps add some room treatment if possible.

Anyway, you wont get the extension out of the 4 inch cms, but there again if you were happy with the spacestation bass extension who knows ... I am once again lost.

It's like a meandering river laugh

.. but I hope you work it out .. good luck.


That's a good point.

He likes his es8's internal speakers which probably have less low end than his current focals. Maybe it's not related with low end then, and more related to over bloated mids. I don't know about the es8 speakers but generally slab dps can't reproduce high and lows frequencies very well, which may result in a warm, lo-fi sound (but also muddy and muffled).

Last edited by RodrigoPon; 02/04/19 01:52 PM.
Re: Tubes For Warmth - Retraction Alert [Re: dmd] #2810675
02/04/19 05:26 PM
02/04/19 05:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,502
Pennsylvania
It is puzzling to be sure.

Well, here is my latest meander …..


During my "Testing and Comparing" sessions I wanted to be sure I was comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

I discovered that I was not.

I was listening to the sound through my headphones which were attached to my headphone jack on the MP11SE.

I was listening to the sound through my Focal 40s which were attached to my LINEOUTs in the back of my MP11SE.

It appears that those sound sources are not identical.

When I attach my headphone jack to a mixer and my LINEOUTs to the same mixer and then the mixer to Focals and attach my headphones to the mixer ….

I hear the SAME SOUND in the headphones and through the Focals.

Maybe not perfectly the same but close enough so I am not displeased to the level I was previously.


So, now …. I think my Focals are probably fine. LOL …..

I cannot attach any particular logical meaning to this but it is what it is …. for now.

As you say ….. meandering.



As for my Spacestation …. I still like the sound it delivers but do not really need it anymore …. I will sell it.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
DH Baldwin (Samick) Action Stack/Key
by TimM_980. 06/25/19 01:11 AM
In Praise Of The Original Yamaha AG N3
by cphollis. 06/25/19 12:42 AM
Hammer wear on Kawai console circa 1968
by extravagrant. 06/24/19 11:46 PM
Audio Book: How to Listen to and Understand Great Music
by TX-Bluebonnet. 06/24/19 11:06 PM
Prices Paid updated ...
by MacMacMac. 06/24/19 11:03 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics192,697
Posts2,841,768
Members93,708
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1