Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Study Group: Clementi Sonatina in C Major, Op 36 No 1

Hey! What fun!

So I am starting day 3 of a 14-day enforced break on Movement 1 as suggested by my teacher and recommendations in this thread.

I'm continuing working on getting movement 2 faster and more even. With the notable exception of mm. 13-18 and 24-25, I found most of movement 2 pretty easy to learn, but getting it faster and smoother is "a thing."

As usual, I have most of this memorized although the only measures I intentionally set out to memorize have been mm. 13-18. Just enough repetitions and it is memorized whether I want to or not.

I have found that when I take breaks from a piece I tend to make faster progress. Recently I had to head out of town for a week and when I came back after a day I made more progress on the first movement than I think I would have with several days of continuous practice. I have found this true in other areas outside of piano as well, in particular when I am learning a new set of development tools.

I have the first movement set so I can play it consistently at a slow pace. My experience has been that to increase speed it is just going to take consistent practice over a period of time so while I do that I have jumped to the third movement. Quick question. In my version at the end of the third movement there is a fermenta over the very end of the piece. Not a note just the thick vertical line denoting the end of the movement. At that point no notes are being played. What is the purpose of the fermenta and how does it alter play? Does it potentially mean you should pause and bask in the adulation of your audience before you stand to take a bow?

Congrats on Movement 1!


LOL. Maybe! I've checked 4 different versions of this, including the Henle and the composer's own published score and none have a fermata anywhere near the end, never mind on the double bar line itself! However, my teacher has told me to play the last measure of the 3rd movement much slower so although I am not starting the 3rd movement myself yet, I've noted it in my score. So this is obviously editorialization by the editor of your edition of the score. Googling though, I see that putting a fermata over a barline, in general wherever that barline is, a form of articulation called "breathing" which is like a pause. Here is a discussion about the purpose of such an articulation on a final barline, and so it appears you just play the note and dramatically hold your hands on the keyboard until the last notes have died away.

So I have the fingering down for the third movement and can play it through slowly but I am picking up the pace so now it's on to the second movement. Here I have a question about the trills. Looking at the posting from Moo it appears that in the third measure the right hand trill equates to two notes per single note of the tripplet the left hand is playing. However when I listen to the recording is sounds like there are more notes there. It could be that for now I am practicing the measures with the trills at an incredibly slow pace focusing on the transition from the trill to be smooth so it doesn't sound like enough notes. How are other people playing the trill? Is there a defined number of notes that a trill should be? Thanks in advance for any help.

It sounds like there is an extra repercussion with the trills there, and the last two notes played slower. I play it at perhaps a bit slower tempo than above (see link below), but the trills as written in the sheet you show.

I think adding extra repercussions is fine, as long as it sounds good. And I think it does with the video above. I like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAMCj_kEwQc

Thanks for the info and the video. Your playing is great. I am going to stick with how the trills are written in Moo's post. I have a good rhythm with that and think I can play that up to speed. Adding another repercussion would just muddy it up based on my skill level. (When you said repercussion I assume that means another "set" of the two notes making up the trill.)

Going off topic a bit it looks like you have an Avante Grand. Is that correct? If so what settings did you use to record the video. It sounds great.

Thanks again.

My Schirmer Performance Edition has the following note about trills:

(BTW, this stepwise thing mentioned doesn't occur in movement 2.)

My teacher has said for Mvmt 2 that the RH trill is played in sync with the notes on the LH - in the case of the most basic trill, 2 RH trill notes to each of the LH triplet notes. In keeping with the performance note above, there is a little footnote at the bottom of Mvmt 2 in my Schirmer which shows as optional 4 RL trill notes synchronized with each of the LH triplet instead of the two mentioned - so for example, for m. 3, that would be AGAG-AGAG-AGFG. However, my teacher pointed out that as this movement is Andante, having a faster trill might be too busy for this movement spoiling the overall effect. I'm going with the simpler 6 note trill myself.

So three more things to point out on Mvt 2 in addition to Moo's suggestions, which my teacher instructed me on:

• It sounds better to have a clear but tiny break (that is, to break legato) after each RH phrases in mm. 4-7 & 14, that is after each of: FACFAC, FBbDFBbD, AGFEDC, CEG, CFA, CFA, F#AD, GBbD, and ACD.
• One should play legato as much as possible as if it were a phrase except at the end of a marked phrase in the score. So for example, pains should be taken to be legato in the transitions DF-CE, CE-BD, and BD-G in mm. 9-10; transitions EA-DB and DB-FD in mm. 11-12
  transitions GBb-FA and FA-EG in m. 23; transitions AC-GBb-FA in m. 16; and transitions FA-EG in both mm. 17 & 18.
• The LH should play portato for each of the three notes in m. 7, but legato through the 4 notes in mm. 14-15.

Yes, repercussion is an extra set of notes.

It is an AvantGrand N2. The audio is output from N2 into microphone of Sony FDR-AX33 HandyCam, producing an MP4 file. The audio file is then extracted and noised removed using Audacity. It's then added back into the video file using ffmpeg.

Thanks for the info. I am really liking this study group. When I first got back into playing as an adult I primarily focused on the fingers as pistons approach. Just trying to get the right notes with the correct fingering. Now focusing on the musicality of a piece makes it much more interesting. (Also sounds much better) Thanks to everyone that has posted video demonstrations, they have been very helpful.

Late last night, I completed a first draft of movement 2 at 42bpm which is note-correct throughout and at a more or less steady tempo and incorporating the features I mentioned here, but as I've heard said, this is just the point where the real work starts and I will have a lot to work to do to improve on my first draft, including of course, bumping the tempo about 50%.

Beginning today, I'm moving on to movement 3 and will be reviewing again and paying attention to the notes above that pertain to movement 3. My teacher suggested this morning that for movement 3, I try to learn gestures (wrists, hands, etc) along with the notes, and I am awaiting receipt of a book that should help with that.

How did you find movement 3, oneilt130? It does seem to be at a ferocious performance tempo, but I'm not going to be worrying about that for a good while yet... if ever.

My movement 1 is still on the hiatus discussed here, for the time being.

Could you post a link to the book you are getting?



Playing slow it isn't that bad, the first 8 measures I am struggling to get up to anywhere near a performance tempo with the left hand. in particular the 3rd measure that is repeated a few times throughout. I play with the correct fingering and your hand essentially stays in the same position but the slight shift causes my fingers to stumble over each other. I also struggle with concentration on the sections that are those 8 measures. Something about them is throwing me off. I'm thinking of taking a break from it for a few days and just focusing on wrapping up playing the second movement slowly.

One question I wanted to throw out there is about the level of difficulty of this piece. On the one hand the fingering, complexity or whatever you want to call it isn't that challenging when playing slowly so I get the idea that this is a beginner/ intermediate piece. However when I listen to this being played at performance tempo I get discouraged. That tempo seems unattainable as a beginner or a beginner / intermediate. With the right amount of time and quality practice can a beginer/intermediate realistically play at that tempo?

It came in with today's mail. This book is not directly pertaining to Clementi, however, Faber's teaching of the contemporary gestures and movements throughout, and associating them with the different parts and aspects of these older exercises is something my teacher felt apropos to what I am doing here and she wanted me to start trying and incorporating these as I was learning this movement. (As I described, this is not a standard historical version of this work, which I already do have, but it has considerable new material introducing gestures and movements and then integrating into the exercises so you can practice them in appropriate points.)


Sounds like me on Movement 1. I'm on a 2 week planned hiatus on that movement that has lasted even longer. As you too are thinking about an intentional break, you might want to take a look at this thread here as there is some info there to suggest a longer break than you are thinking now might be more helpful.


The various piano certification syllabuses have graded movement 1 between grade 1 and 3. Movement 2 appears to have wide agreement that it is grade 3. And likewise for Movement 3. The entire sonata is considered a grade 3. Jane Magrath calls the sonatina as a whole, a Level 4 out of 10, of the teaching literature pieces (where Level 10 would be a Bach 3-Part Invention, for example).


I am already achieving the required tempo in bursts, and I only touched a piano for the first time in my life last February, so I don't think it is impossible. However, it isn't even and smooth, and errors at those speeds abound. Both seem to be things that it is possible to do stuff about, and I feel like I will be learning a lot in bringing this piece from a slower tempo up to the performance tempo. This is why my teacher recommended and I followed with my intentional break for movement 1. To lose some of my muscle memory that is remember parts in inefficient and slow ways, and then I can methodically "slow practice" some new habits which will allow better speed scaling than my older ones. Just one example is wiring into the "new" muscle memory the use of proper wrist rotation through the Alberti bass sections in mm. 9, 11, 20-21 (not sure if it is still considered an "Alberti bass if it is in the treble clef! LOL), 32, and 34. So yes, I think it is doable, even at my age and level of experience. I just can't do it yet, but hope to with the appropriate effort and training after my movement 1 hiatus comes to an end .

BTW, after starting Movement 2 on Feb 15th, I already played the entirety of Movement 2 last night on my 17th day with it, without any obvious errors (sent you a PM) at a tempo of 42, and since my final personal target is 66, I see a performance tempo as completely doable and much quicker to do actually than mvt 1 which will obviously require some dedicated effort on my part to bring up to a performance tempo, as I mention above.

Also, I can't say anything about mvt 3 since I am only starting that one today - you might be right on that one. The performance tempo seems scary fast. Will assess again in a week or two after I learn all the notes.

It is an approachable piece for a beginner at a slow pace which is why it was an excellent idea for a thread in the beginner forum. It is harder up to play at full tempo but this is a problem you find with a lot of music. How you get from one to the other is a good question.

If you are playing it slowly first that is exactly what you should do. It is how I learn all of my pieces. Once it is relatively secure at that tempo you can experiment with increasing the tempo. I generally would experiment with secure sections even before this. On sections that are not secure I would do the opposite and slow down time. I have slow down so much before to correct a mistake but sometimes it is the only way to do it. When I hear slow practice, I normally do slow focused practice on the sections I make lots of mistakes rather than playing the whole piece slowly (which is what some people think of). Playing with time on easier and hard sections is a great way to practice.

It takes practice to get it up to tempo. How you do it and how long depends on so many factors. I however am relatively happy if a piece is secure at a slow tempo. Speed is generally the last thing I work on and worry about. If its secure slowly I genearlly can get it up to speed without difficulty. Sometimes it can take a lot of time. The only problem is if its technically too hard. But if I've done the work in the learning process and things are secure at the slow speed with correct fingerings, it is quite easy to build up the speed. If you rush and things are not secure slowly then generally it falls apart very quickly.

On occasions I have found that a piece technically is too hard at a fast tempo despite practice. I have therefore decided to keep pieces slightly slower and accurate. For such difficulties that are technical in nature, I have only solved them by coming back to them a year or two more experience. Otherwise I'm not a fan at all of rushing to get up to speed particularly so at the expense of accuracy and musicalness !

Good luck.

Spartan, it appears you are using the Schirmer's Edition score linked by Tyrone on page 2 of this thread, but, Richard is referring to an edition with different fingering recommendations. I am using the RCM Repertoire book and it shows the same fingering Richard is referencing (start the sequence with finger 2 instead of the 3 that your version recommends).

Since I struggled with that sequence, I will report what I have done to see if it helps you. My problem is compounded by my hands being small, which means, I have to achieve a greater amount of angular bend in the joint where my fingers connect to my hand in order to achieve the same fingertip height that a person of longer fingers achieves with a lesser degree of lift at that joint. So, getting finger 4 atop the black keys (Eb in this case) is a little challenging, especially when played in a scale sequence with fingers 3 and 5 playing their respective notes on the adjacent, lower elevation, white keys.

What I am doing (though using 2-3-4) is mildly cupping my hand as I play 2 so that 3's joint with the hand is already elevating at to prepare for its play. in other words, my hand is arched as though grabbing the exposed bottom of a wine bottle and pulling it out from the rack. Then, the actual motion is playing 2 down into the D and then rolling the hand clockwise, rolling 3 (pre-elevated) onto Eb and 4 down into the F. Then a rock back counterclockwise to drop 2 into D to complete the first beat.

Then, as Richard mentioned, you must move 5 leftwards one position to place it on F to begin the descent. This involves a slight lift when moving 5, but, that's ok, since that F is the second beat and dropping from the lift can create a slight accent over the final 3 8th notes.

I you stick with your score, you would be dealing with fingers 3-4-5 instead of my 2-3-4.

This is the most successful approach I have managed so far. Right now, I am working on the problem of going from this descent to the C-G chord that immediately follows in the next measure.

I hope something I have said helps.

I ultimately found the Schirmer fingering to be a total fail for m. 22 of Mvt 1. I now use 23424321 followed by a 25 for the start of m. 23. Works tons better. Smoother too. The 25 for the BG is actually pretty easy.

BTW, this exact issue of finger for m.22 of Mvt 1 was not only discussed further up in this thread, but also extensively in this earlier thread over here where many alternative fingerings were tried out by different people.

Entirely shocked because I've pretty much already learned movement 3 after having just started it Monday afternoon. It seems to be the easiest movement when played slowly since there are so many duplicate measures. After starting it after my class on Monday morning, I already played it end-to-end during my class this evening, although with many errors, to be sure. So now I am unexpectedly already in the phase of working on getting to a complete note-correct playing. My teacher advised the following improvements, which I will work on:

• the durations of the rests are important and must be precisely kept
• Figures in mm. 7, 15, 19, 41, 49, 53, and 61 should be played with wrist rotation
• Gestures should be added to right hand

This movement seems a lot easier than movement 2, which in turn is easier than movement 1. I'm going to see if I can't, with more repetitions, get to the point of a clean play-through which is note- (and rest-!) correct.

Main difficulty will be trying to get the tempo up since the performance tempo is nerve wracking. I will worry about that later after I can play it through cleanly from beginning to end.

I've got 3rd movement assigned recently and after some time with it I already had some pointers and advices from my teacher:
- it's easy to overshadow RH with LH, so I should aim at very delicate LH pretty much through entire piece, especially bars 1-16 and whenever they repeat
- I tend to speed up from bar 17 and calm down for bar 35
- LH alone practice with metronome and increasing tempo should help with both light touch and keeping tempo
- RH should be clear and bold, but light at the same time; I shouldn't aim at the most possible soft RH for p markings (especially when it's tricky to maintain softer RH at all times), there just has to be some difference between p and f sections; also f in bar 9 doesn't have to be sudden and distinctive
- I should work on audible pulse in 23-29, especially in LH
- we decided to put ritardando in bar 34 and lift RH before pp in 35
- Have to remember to show most lightest LH from 35 pp
- I shouldn't worry about ff in the end bars (it's my first piece with ff), f is perfectly fine

My score is different from the examples linked in this thread. I have staccato markings in some sections, but I think it fits the piece just fine.

Overal very enjoyable piece. Similar to movement 1 it seems composed very smart to feel natural under fingers (well maybe that C in bar 3 in LH was weird at first, but I got used to it).

I've got the first and second movement just about up to the tempo I want and am working on playing it with focus and attention to detail. Now I have jumped back in the third movement and the time off was worth it. Slowly working up the tempo constantly reminding my self to resit the urge to play through all of the time.

So for now I plan on practicing each of the movements with some set goals but will probably spend no more than 30 minutes a day on the whole thing. I find that too much repetition and I tend to get sloppy and play worse.

So... seeing as I am doing this without a teacher I am looking for some suggestions for the next piece to tackle. This has been a great experience with the study group and I would like to do it again. I have seen other study groups for other pieces out there but was wondering if anyone could suggest one that is about at this level? Or should I move on to the next Clementi Sonatina in the book? That would be Op. 36 No 2.

Thanks in advance for the suggestions and thanks to Tyrone for putting this together.

Edited to add if anyone could suggest a one page piece along the same lines as this I would appreciate it. I would like to be working simultaneously on a longer piece and a one page or less piece.

Thanks again.