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Checking a steady speed #2808974
01/31/19 12:36 PM
01/31/19 12:36 PM
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Animisha Online content OP
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How do you all check that you play with a steady speed when you play without a metronome? I record my playing (audio only), and when I listen to it I clap my hands. In that way, I can hear "sudden" mistakes, like a erroneous pause between phrases. But I don't know how to check if my playing slowly gets faster, or slowly gets slower, because my clapping does the same.


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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2808978
01/31/19 12:52 PM
01/31/19 12:52 PM
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I use the free Audacity digital audio workstation program. You can mark beats and measure very precisely with it. Plus it's a complete workstation program.


-- J.S.

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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: JohnSprung] #2808997
01/31/19 01:45 PM
01/31/19 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
I use the free Audacity digital audio workstation program. You can mark beats and measure very precisely with it. Plus it's a complete workstation program.

Is it possible to do that automatically? Or do you mark the beats manually?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2809006
01/31/19 01:57 PM
01/31/19 01:57 PM
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I did it manually -- because that was quicker and easier than looking into an automatic way that might exist.... I wasn't doing a lot of it.


-- J.S.

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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809098
01/31/19 05:43 PM
01/31/19 05:43 PM
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If you can't tell - can it possibly matter?

In once sense, sure, if your sense of rhythm is so terrible you can't discern gross changes of speed that would jar others (80 bpm at the start, 140 at the end), but first find out if that is a problem (have someone else listen to the track).

But if it sounds musical and enjoyable, what matters if you are at 81 bpm at the start, and 83 at the end?

If the answer is the answer does matter for you because you are accompanying dancers (say), then the first step is to fix your clapping, as the added difficulties of piano are going to mask the problems and errors in rhythmic sense for a long time.


Shigaru Kawai SK-2, Kawai MP11SE
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: RogerRL] #2809157
01/31/19 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RogerRL
If you can't tell - can it possibly matter?.


Yes, if you're going to play for other to listen, and they can tell, and it matters to them.... Otherwise, no.


-- J.S.

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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: RogerRL] #2809167
01/31/19 08:37 PM
01/31/19 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RogerRL
If you can't tell - can it possibly matter?

In once sense, sure, if your sense of rhythm is so terrible you can't discern gross changes of speed that would jar others (80 bpm at the start, 140 at the end), but first find out if that is a problem (have someone else listen to the track).

But if it sounds musical and enjoyable, what matters if you are at 81 bpm at the start, and 83 at the end?
Even if you can't tell and only a much better pianist or tiny percentage of listeners could tell your tempo wasn't steady(of course, it goes without saying this doesn't mean something like a tempo change from 81 to 83 during the entire piece), then a serious piano student should want this pointed out by a teacher so they can improve to the greatest extent.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/31/19 08:38 PM.
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809229
02/01/19 12:35 AM
02/01/19 12:35 AM
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I have a similar problem where I can't really tell, whether the tempo is maintained throughout. What I do to check this is:
1) Play my recording and roughly figure out the BPM of the first line, with some hit-and-trial with the metronome.
2) Play the recording again starting at the exact beat of the metronome.
3) Match the first beat of every measure with the metronome flash. (I use a mobile app where the screen flashes a different colour on the first beats. I turn down the metronome volume way low, and just go by the flashes while doing this activity.)

The metronome and the recording don't always match exactly. But this more or less gives me an idea whether the tempo is indeed varying a lot. More importantly, it helps in figuring out other rhythm mistakes that may be present unbeknownst to me.

Then again, I'm working on simple, short pieces, ranging between 4-8 lines. So all this doesn't take that much time. I am not sure, if this will help with more advanced music.


Think Twice, Play Once
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809235
02/01/19 01:20 AM
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you could:

. . . Play the piece, and record it;

. . . Adjust a metronome to match the tempo in the first measure or two;

. . . See if the same tempo matches the last measure or two.

It's difficult to keep tempo, if you have to fiddle with a metronome while playing.


I like the "one flash per measure" idea, also.


Some drummers seriously worry about this stuff. I suspect other musicians just say:

. . . "No problem -- I follow the drummer."<g>


. Charles
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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809243
02/01/19 01:59 AM
02/01/19 01:59 AM
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I trust my ears and occasional counting. If I ever had doubts, my early recordings soon secured me that my internal metronome is good enough for musical purposes. Also I am sure my teacher would have said if there was an issue with tempo fluctuations. I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to meter and note values so I don't speed up until I can manage the tempo. I think this is the most common reason for tempo fluctuations.
Strangely enough, while I have a horrible memory in other ways, my "rhythmic" memory is very good so I can set a tempo in my head and keep it up endlessly. Maybe a legacy of lots of rhythmic dancing when younger?

Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809244
02/01/19 02:09 AM
02/01/19 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
How do you all check that you play with a steady speed when you play without a metronome? I record my playing (audio only), and when I listen to it I clap my hands. In that way, I can hear "sudden" mistakes, like a erroneous pause between phrases. But I don't know how to check if my playing slowly gets faster, or slowly gets slower, because my clapping does the same.


I think one has to keep in mind the particular repertoire piece one is playing and whether or not it is even appropriate to keep an identical tempo from one section to another. Listen to great recordings of much of the standard repertoire and you'll find that many pianists do not keep a steady tempo throughout a work. Of course, I'm not referring to momentary changes in tempo due to what is commonly referred to as rubato nor am I referring to tempo changes indicated by the composer.

As an example, just today, I was comparing recordings of "January" from Tchaikovsky's The Seasons, Op. 37a, and I was quite surprised how much the tempo changed in recordings by Ashkenazy, Richter, and Pletnev; not just that the tempo changed within a section, but by how much. This seemed to me quite idiomatic given the composer and the music, thus my suggestion that repertoire may help determine whether or not a steady tempo is even always desirable.

Schnabel's interpretation of Beethoven may be considered old fashioned and out-of-date by today's listeners, although he was considered a master Beethoven interpreter in his prime, but if anyone has looked at his edition of the Beethoven Sonatas, s/he will see precise tempo change indications (metronome markings) on just about every page. Sometimes it just up or down a "click", but at other times the tempo changes suggested by Schnabel are considerable even where no such change is indicated by the composer.

Perhaps we need to think more about what the music is "saying" or what we want the music to say and not be bound by strict tempi from the beginning to the end of a work.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: outo] #2809260
02/01/19 03:25 AM
02/01/19 03:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sweden
Animisha Online content OP
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
I use the free Audacity digital audio workstation program. You can mark beats and measure very precisely with it. Plus it's a complete workstation program.

Thank you John. If all else fails, I may download Audacity. The idea of learning "a complete workstation program" is quite disheartening though...

Originally Posted by RogerRL
If you can't tell - can it possibly matter?

Hi Roger! I'm a beginner, and I just feel I need to improve this aspect of my playing as well. So yes, for me it matters.

Originally Posted by Tech-key
I have a similar problem where I can't really tell, whether the tempo is maintained throughout. What I do to check this is:
1) Play my recording and roughly figure out the BPM of the first line, with some hit-and-trial with the metronome.
2) Play the recording again starting at the exact beat of the metronome.
3) Match the first beat of every measure with the metronome flash. (I use a mobile app where the screen flashes a different colour on the first beats. I turn down the metronome volume way low, and just go by the flashes while doing this activity.)

The metronome and the recording don't always match exactly. But this more or less gives me an idea whether the tempo is indeed varying a lot. More importantly, it helps in figuring out other rhythm mistakes that may be present unbeknownst to me.

Then again, I'm working on simple, short pieces, ranging between 4-8 lines. So all this doesn't take that much time. I am not sure, if this will help with more advanced music.

Thank you Tech-key for your advice! I also work on simple, short pieces, and I will certainly test your idea.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
you could:

. . . Play the piece, and record it;

. . . Adjust a metronome to match the tempo in the first measure or two;

. . . See if the same tempo matches the last measure or two.

It's difficult to keep tempo, if you have to fiddle with a metronome while playing.

Thank you Charles, I'll check that method as well.

Originally Posted by outo
I trust my ears and occasional counting.

Alas, I don't!

Originally Posted by BruceD
As an example, just today, I was comparing recordings of "January" from Tchaikovsky's The Seasons, Op. 37a, and I was quite surprised how much the tempo changed in recordings by Ashkenazy, Richter, and Pletnev; not just that the tempo changed within a section, but by how much. This seemed to me quite idiomatic given the composer and the music, thus my suggestion that repertoire may help determine whether or not a steady tempo is even always desirable.

Hi Bruce! Here you compare accomplished pianists, who (hopefully) have full control over their tempo and who decide if they want to play a certain passage quicker or slower, with a beginner (me) who feels she wants to be able to control her tempo a bit more.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809284
02/01/19 05:36 AM
02/01/19 05:36 AM
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About using a metronome app:

Many of those apps allow you to "tap in" the beat. I.e. there's a field that you can tap on (like several times, in a steady beat), and the metronome sets itself to the BPM that you tapped.
I guess that most of those apps that allow you to tap in the beat like that also display the current BPM as a number, while you are still tapping.

This can be used very easily to verify the speed in a recording:

Play back the recording and tap the beat (the beat that you hear from the recording) into the app, continuously, over the whole piece. The metronome will instantly reflect what you are currently tapping in the displayed BPM number and that BPM number will fluctuate down or up as the speed of the piece changes (of course it will also fluctuate if you tap irregularly, so you should really try to tap the correct beat that you hear). That way, you can easily see if you have fluctuations in speed, and where, and how much.

This is also useful if you want to find out the BPM speed of a piece that you found on YouTube, or Spotify, or whatever (for example if you want to check what speed a pro plays the piece at - you will probably be surprised how much variance the pros have!).

That method is much easier than manually setting and re-setting the metronome speed over and over until it (roughly) matches what you hear. Just tap along with the music and you see the (current) BPM right away.

Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: JoBert] #2809288
02/01/19 05:52 AM
02/01/19 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Many of those apps allow you to "tap in" the beat. I.e. there's a field that you can tap on (like several times, in a steady beat), and the metronome sets itself to the BPM that you tapped.

I have this function on my metronome app as well. However, whenever I tap a beat, even when I listen to a teacher's recording, the BPM that the metronome shows is never a steady number, but always fluctuates quite a lot. Now I don't know if this is because of my horrendous rhythmic tapping abilities, or due to the low touch sensitivity of my phone screen....

Last edited by Animisha; 02/01/19 05:53 AM.

Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809291
02/01/19 06:01 AM
02/01/19 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha


Originally Posted by outo
I trust my ears and occasional counting.

Alas, I don't!



Sorry, I did not mean that it is supposed to be that easy for everyone, especially not a beginner. Just generally answering your question. Don't like the sound of metronomes and don't feel I need them, even though sometimes think they are useful to help with kinky measures. Aiming for a certain tempo is not that important for me anyway, I play in a tempo that I feel I can bring out the important things in the music. I really never cared much for pieces where speed is the main attraction. Let the young virtuosos play those for people who want to be impressed. I am an older amateur with different expectations smile

I think our previous background has an impact on what we find easy and what we find difficult when we start piano studies. I still want to point out that much of the tempo problems come from trying too fast too early when learning a piece. What helps is to always play the piece at the tempo where you can handle also the hardest parts and only speed up after you have worked out those parts. How to do that is another discussion...

Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809293
02/01/19 06:02 AM
02/01/19 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by JoBert
Many of those apps allow you to "tap in" the beat. I.e. there's a field that you can tap on (like several times, in a steady beat), and the metronome sets itself to the BPM that you tapped.

I have this function on my metronome app as well. However, whenever I tap a beat, even when I listen to a teacher's recording, the BPM that the metronome shows is never a steady number, but always fluctuates quite a lot. Now I don't know if this is because of my horrendous rhythmic tapping abilities, or due to the low touch sensitivity of my phone screen....

Could be either, or could be a bad implementation of the tap-in function in the app.
If you try to tap-in a beat without listening to a recording, i.e. if you concentrate on a steady tap, does it then also fluctuate widely? If yes, then it is either a problem with the phone or the app. So you could try a different app to see it that helps.
For me, the tap-in method works well (although I cannot give you a recommendation of an app that works well, because I'm not using a dedicated metronome app but the built-in metronome in mobilesheets, which is a score-display app for my tablet).

Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: JoBert] #2809427
02/01/19 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
[]
Could be either, or could be a bad implementation of the tap-in function in the app.
If you try to tap-in a beat without listening to a recording, i.e. if you concentrate on a steady tap, does it then also fluctuate widely? If yes, then it is either a problem with the phone or the app. So you could try a different app to see it that helps.
For me, the tap-in method works well (although I cannot give you a recommendation of an app that works well, because I'm not using a dedicated metronome app but the built-in metronome in mobilesheets, which is a score-display app for my tablet).


Maybe get another metronome, tap to it on the phone app, and see if you still get variations.


-- J.S.

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Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809429
02/01/19 12:39 PM
02/01/19 12:39 PM
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If you're really concerned about this, you can get in-ear metronomes that only you can hear. Then you can record to a precise tempo with no problem. In the old days of movie and TV music, that's how they recorded the scores to match picture exactly -- everybody had a headphone with a click track. They also had the picture projected so they could see what the final result would be.


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: JohnSprung] #2809447
02/01/19 01:01 PM
02/01/19 01:01 PM
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Animisha Online content OP
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung

If you're really concerned about this, you can get in-ear metronomes that only you can hear. Then you can record to a precise tempo with no problem. In the old days of movie and TV music, that's how they recorded the scores to match picture exactly -- everybody had a headphone with a click track. They also had the picture projected so they could see what the final result would be.

Smart solution John! I might just do that. smile


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Checking a steady speed [Re: Animisha] #2809465
02/01/19 01:43 PM
02/01/19 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by JohnSprung

If you're really concerned about this, you can get in-ear metronomes that only you can hear. Then you can record to a precise tempo with no problem. In the old days of movie and TV music, that's how they recorded the scores to match picture exactly -- everybody had a headphone with a click track. They also had the picture projected so they could see what the final result would be.

Smart solution John! I might just do that. smile




I have this one, it is great.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1282411-REG/korg_ie1m_in_ear_metronome.html


Piano teacher.
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