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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810148
02/03/19 08:50 AM
02/03/19 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
I am open to suggestions and would love answers to question such as...

What type of repetition is best suited for:

speed/accuracy
memorization
musicality


What are efficient ways of:

working through the piece
preparing a recital such as the 24 Chopin etudes


Regarding my recording of Liszt consolation 3,
I prefer the faster tempo
I only spent about 5 hours total (2-3 weeks)
When I record the piece I am more focused on hitting the right notes and buffering the next measure while keeping track of the section.

I will polish the pieces in the future since it is more important to build a repertoire.


Well the notes yes in lists are mostly secure. However the piece you have not done the basics. the rhythm in consolation 3 is often insecure. It is a shane. Your right hand is mostly secure. The left rhythm is not. I have played and recorded myself if you want to listen but there are tutorials and threads on this rhythm challenge which I and others have posted f you want to find them on the forum.

Slow practice is what you need for this problem. I often play challenging sections very slowly when I first play or concentrating on s part. I often speed up quickly, I don’t think metronome is as common when you have a good sense of time.

The 4:3 rhythm needs to be very precisely. It is a challenge to most pianists but learn it properly you won’t struggle later on. The piece loses its magic if you rush it. Some of the hard parts you are rushing. Not all the notes are correct in the left. Sorry I’m not so easily impressed. It sounds as if you have rushed it. I am more impressed with the Bach, that first half was excellent. But I don’t think playing fast so early has worked. I would work on the rhythm more hands together at a slower tempo.

The pedal is a bit of an issue. I’m not sure what is wrong but it’s too blurred in the pieces. It could be not lifting properly when changing, changing at the wrong places or not changing enough. Pedal in piano is a skill. You need to pedal all the harmony changes. This is often not regular.

I cannot really answer your question easily. Overall slow practice and focused practice is the best to iron out problems. How you increase speed It depends on the piece and the section what techniques may be best. However rushing and playing Chopin etudes, I would not recommend. I myself find the difference between playing pieces of this sandard and performing very great. I myself cannot play most of Chopin etudes. I guess I’m not your target audience for this.

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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810153
02/03/19 09:10 AM
02/03/19 09:10 AM
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What was the reason in the method to play hard pieces so early? Is there a reason for the rush? I think you’d be successful if the choices of pieces were more of a gradual increase in difficulty and you spent longer on them.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810228
02/03/19 02:08 PM
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I wanted to test my method on a variety of pieces especially the virtuoso ones since I was told it was impossible to memorize/perform without a teacher/traditional-methods.

I will eventually polish the pieces but as of now,
I don't have regular access to a higher quality piano thus cannot properly work on musicality.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: cmb13] #2810231
02/03/19 02:18 PM
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It's not "superior intelligence"
I just figured out an efficient way of memorization and solving technical problems.

I don't agree with that analogy.
https://youtu.be/ga_7j72CVlc?t=27

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810295
02/03/19 05:46 PM
02/03/19 05:46 PM
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I dont think its healthy to blame lack of musicalness on the piano. You can always always work on the musicality of a piece whatever you play on. Only if its broken then perhaps you can use the piano excuse. I dont even have a piano to practice on and the piano and would love to be able to practice daily on a piano. I practice on a digital piano which has much heavier keys and its not quite the same. I manage fine like this. I would try and wipe this thought from your mind.

Who told you it was impossible to memorise virtuoso pieces without a teacher/traditional-methods ? My 'traditional method', whatever this means, has got me to memorise absolutely nothing at all. I admit I dont have a clue how you can learn to memorise a piece. It looks very hard work to me. I myself dont have the patience for that. I dont think having a lack of this skill has prevented me learning and playing the piano. I seem to be progressing very well and as no teacher in the past has tried to teach me to memorise its never been something I've bothered with.

If you are not going to work on the LIstz again. What is the next piece then? Good luck !

Last edited by Moo :); 02/03/19 05:47 PM.
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810335
02/03/19 08:07 PM
02/03/19 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
It's not "superior intelligence"
I just figured out an efficient way of memorization and solving technical problems.

I don't agree with that analogy.
https://youtu.be/ga_7j72CVlc?t=27


I would love to see your method tweaked by a very good teacher that can shore up any flaws. Have you considered collaborating with a good teacher to see how to take this method even further?

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810352
02/03/19 09:34 PM
02/03/19 09:34 PM
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Posts: 1,254
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist

I just figured out an efficient way of memorization and solving technical problems.


I think this is great. Think of how hard people tend to find memorising large amounts of music. For me the way baudelairepianist actually plays is beside the point (I haven't heard him). It doesn't change the fact that he memorised large amounts of music in a fairly short time.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810353
02/03/19 09:35 PM
02/03/19 09:35 PM
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I sent emails out to several conservatories and local piano teachers but they either weren't interested or saw it as heresy.

At this point I have lost some interest since I've been trying to finding work as a web developer.
You mentioned that you were a software engineer, care to share any career advice or learning optimization methods especially in web development?

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810358
02/03/19 09:54 PM
02/03/19 09:54 PM
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Posts: 1,254
Dublin
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
I sent emails out to several conservatories and local piano teachers but they either weren't interested or saw it as heresy.

At this point I have lost some interest since I've been trying to finding work as a web developer.
You mentioned that you were a software engineer, care to share any career advice or learning optimization methods especially in web development?


You're probably addressing the OP.

I can't see any way of getting your ideas out there unless through a YouTube channel or something like that. Maybe you could discuss things with the Synthesia people.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810362
02/03/19 10:01 PM
02/03/19 10:01 PM
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The instruments were essentially "broken" with malfunctioning pedals and inconsistent key mechanisms.
I practice mostly on a digital weighted Yamaha.
I limited pedal use until the recording stage.

I think these are significant factors to consider though of course I realize that all the pieces need significant further work if I ever want to be considered "great".

Presently, I'm working on :

Chopin ballade 2
Chopin etude 10.12
Chopin nocturne 19
Chopin waltz 6
Chopin prelude 11
Mendelssohn SWW 19.1

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810364
02/03/19 10:11 PM
02/03/19 10:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,254
Dublin
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
The instruments were essentially "broken" with malfunctioning pedals and inconsistent key mechanisms.
I practice mostly on a digital weighted Yamaha.
I limited pedal use until the recording stage.

I think these are significant factors to consider though of course I realize that all the pieces need significant further work if I ever want to be considered "great".

Presently, I'm working on :

Chopin ballade 2
Chopin etude 10.12
Chopin nocturne 19
Chopin waltz 6
Chopin prelude 11
Mendelssohn SWW 19.1



I believe these are two different issues. You've managed something that would be a huge step for many pianists.
The fact that your playing many need work, and you haven't got a good piano etc. doesn't change what you have achieved, which is quite a lot.

Last edited by johnstaf; 02/03/19 10:11 PM.
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: johnstaf] #2810365
02/03/19 10:21 PM
02/03/19 10:21 PM
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Thank you,
I just wish I could pursue it with more time since I think I was onto something regarding learning optimization that could then be used to rapidly acquire any skill by minimizing time/effort.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810369
02/03/19 10:59 PM
02/03/19 10:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,382
Pennsylvania
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
I just figured out an efficient way of memorization and solving technical problems.



Is there some reason why you are explaining what that "efficient way" is ?

Is it a secret ?

Is it too complicated to explain here ?

If we knew more about it we might be able to judge whether or not it might be useful to someone who aspires to play well.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: dmd] #2810370
02/03/19 11:03 PM
02/03/19 11:03 PM
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https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/aejzsu/heres_my_practice_method/

also look into my post/comment history on here and on reddit

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810372
02/03/19 11:25 PM
02/03/19 11:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,382
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/aejzsu/heres_my_practice_method/

also look into my post/comment history on here and on reddit


Thank You


I see now that you actually have a "method" that you follow.

And, it works in so far as being able to memorize which notes to play.

Of course, as others have undoubtedly done …. I raise the question of …. When does it become music ?

I assume you wish to play beautifully, so do you have near term plans to work on something to develop it into a piece of music ?

There is a real danger here that you may be so enamored with your ability to "memorize" that you find reasons/excuses to avoid the real work of learning to play music.

It would be sad if that were to be the case.


Congratulations on the method you have developed and the success you have demonstrated and I now challenge you to take the next step …. beautiful music.

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810375
02/03/19 11:44 PM
02/03/19 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
See, this is what I'm talking about. Here's an area where someone is experimenting with a new way to learn and has made remarkable progress in a short amount of time. I do not have the ability to say whether or not it's good, and a couple of you guys have mentioned mistakes and issues with the playing, but nonetheless you both agree this is phenomenal progress for a beginner. I wonder if ideas like this, paired with a really good teacher, would revolutionize the learning process.


There are so many important things to learn that isolating just one doesn’t create nice music. It just makes sounds. Many of us, myself included, have worked on similar methods of memorization, few measures at a time, then few sections at a time. I am not nearly as good at it as the person above claims to be; not many can memorize and play a complicated piece in just a few hours. However, even if possible, I would recommend as you alluded to pairing this with the study of technique. Otherwise it’s just an experiment.

If you were to follow just this technique, I would suggest adding to it the practice of dynamics, phrasing, learning to keep good time. What good is it to just know which keys to press if it doesn’t sound good? And if you learn a complicated piece and then learn another and another, will you remember the earlier ones in a week? A month? Three months? If not, what have you accomplished?


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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: cmb13] #2810384
02/04/19 12:18 AM
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The last "20%" is simply a matter of more time/effort polishing each piece through re-learning
thus it is more efficient to acquire a repertoire by dropping the pieces at 80% quality so more time can be allotted to new material.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810391
02/04/19 12:34 AM
02/04/19 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
The last "20%" is simply a matter of more time/effort polishing each piece through re-learning
thus it is more efficient to acquire a repertoire by dropping the pieces at 80% quality so more time can be allotted to new material.


I am not sure if "simply" is an appropriate descriptive term for the polishing part.

Of course, you will know more after you have attempted that part.

It is all theory at this point.

And …. be aware … there will be a strong tendency to avoid that part and stay with the memorizing phase …. your safe place.

We all like to do what we are good at and avoid things we find difficult.

Good Luck to you


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810456
02/04/19 08:11 AM
02/04/19 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
The last "20%" is simply a matter of more time/effort polishing each piece through re-learning
thus it is more efficient to acquire a repertoire by dropping the pieces at 80% quality so more time can be allotted to new material.

What’s the point of amassing repertoire if it’s unfinished? Do you anticipate one day going back to finish these pieces, and if so, at that time, do you think you’ll still have them in memory?


Steinway A3
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Working On
Chopin 28:15
Tchaikovsky Seasons: October

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810468
02/04/19 09:09 AM
02/04/19 09:09 AM
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The method baudelairepianist is using is not that different to the one I use. It's nothing new. I picked it up from Graham Fitch, Josh Wright, PianoStreet's Bernhard, and many others.

I work on a phrase at a time and memorise before I try it at the keyboard. I continue to work on phrases as units until until they can be joined into two and four bar sections. They'll then stay as section units until all sections are at performance level. On the other hand I've been playing music on piano and guitar for over fifty years and wouldn't learn without musicality. Indeed, finding the musicality helps me memorise music quickly as sound before memorising the notes.

For repertoire pieces I practise only what I can hold in short term memory.

I don't think the difficulty thing is an issue if there isn't a difficulty in realising it. Barenboim's advice was to remember as much as possible before the age of 25. What we learn by then we tend to remember for the rest of our lives. What we learn after that we need to keep relearning.

The difficulty of a piece may well be in realising the music in it. For this, and this is where real technique lies (the rest is just mechanics), easier pieces make bringing out the music more achievable. Chopin's music is hard enough that getting the notes is too hard to allow room for bringing out the music.

The absence of scales and arpeggios is not detrimental at this stage of his practise. Those that know them but don't practise them don't find the need to practise them. Those that practise them every day find they can't do without practising them every day.

Reading music is contentious - which means we don't how right or wrong it may be but...
If memorising is a big thing, memorising relies on contextual information for fast assimilation. Synthesia can't distinguish the musical equivalents of your, you're and yore or of there, they're and their. For me, I couldn't memorise from synthesia at all - let alone as fast as from a score - and I see it as being as hard as reading a sentence where every letter is one letter further on in the alphabet, like reading 'fbtz' for 'easy'.

I don't get Synthesia so it wouldn't be fair of me to naysay it. But I would suggest learning some simple score reading, say single line music from a school recorder tutor, before dismissing it. Distinguishing D# from Eb can make, with a bit of theory, the whole memorising business so much simpler - and memorising is the main issue here for him.


Richard
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