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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: 90125] #2810006
02/02/19 08:10 PM
02/02/19 08:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 38
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Offline OP
AnthonyPaulO  Offline OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 38
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by 90125
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
perhaps I'm missing something.

Yes, you seem to be missing one key distinction about this forum. This forum mostly isn't about music as an art form. It is about music as a competitive sport. To maintain fairness in the piano competition everyone agrees to compete using the piano technology as it stood at the end of XIX century.


I had no idea, I thought this was a piano forum where anything piano was open for discussion. I'm not looking to compete.

Originally Posted by 90125

In your initial posting you linked to the video of Bruce Hornsby playing somewhat complicated arpeggios on the acoustic piano. Now answer this question: your goal is to:
  • look like B.H. playing piano when somebody watches your hands over the keyboard;
  • sound like B.H. when playing live using the modern keyboard technology?

The same question could be re-phrased into: do you wan to:
  • learn to play arpeggios by hand on an acoustic piano or similar digital equivalent;
  • learn how to program the arpeggiator on a modern instrument that would sound similar but demand much less from the pianist technique?

It is really you who needs to make that choice.


None of the above! I think you're reading too much into this, it's actually very simple. I loved the song, I saw the video, I saw how much fun he was having playing it, I looked at the way he played and it looked like he was just toying with the keys at times with his left index finger and having total mastery over it, almost effortless... I would love to be able to play like that, that's all; it was my inspiration to buy the MP6, though it took until now for me to actually start learning.

Originally Posted by 90125

Also, please answer why you bought rather dumb instrument like Kawai MP6 to learn playing the keyboard? Have you researched what instruments B.H. played during that time? It wasn't only Steinway D, it was also Oberheim OB-X and Korg M1. Have you read the thread on this forum from 2006 about his keyboard setup:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/273148.html

Why you didn't buy a Korg Kronos/Kross/whatever else is the modern keyboard workstation that the players like B.H. use live? Did you actually read the liner notes on his CDs that typically enumerate what instruments everyone was playing, especially the keyboards where the technological progress was the most obvious?


I purchased the Kawai MP6 because at the time it was the digital piano most like a piano without taking up a huge amount of real estate.I wanted something of quality that felt just like a piano and that I can move around or stow away if necessary. I never researched what instruments Hornsby used because I knew that buying his instruments wasn't going to make me a great musician nor turn me into a Bruce Hornsby. I already know I will never be as good as Hornsby, he has devoted his life to this and for me this will be a hobby not a career. It will be many years before I can even attempt to perform that song the right way, and honestly I don't know if I will ever achieve such mastery over the instrument to play it with the non-chalance he seems to be able to play it, but I can always dream.

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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810011
02/02/19 08:22 PM
02/02/19 08:22 PM
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Moo :) Offline
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Tyrone, the pieces are simply too hard for him. Some of the pieces I would consider the method perhaps. The Mendelssohn, he has seemed to got the basic rhythm and fingers are good. The pedal he cannot use. It is completely blurred but this is fixable. The finger legato is not there but again a skill you can learn. Overall passable and very very good for a beginner. The Listz however when the basic, 4:3, is incorrect throughout, it is a painful listen. He is rushing and its far too hard. What a shame.

Last edited by Moo :); 02/02/19 08:29 PM.
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810015
02/02/19 08:28 PM
02/02/19 08:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Tyrone, the pieces are simply too hard for him. Some of the pieces I would consider the method perhaps. The Mendelssohn, he has seemed to got the basic rhythm and fingers are good. The pedal he cannot use. It is completely blurred but this is fixable. The finger legato is not there but again a skill you can learn. Overall passable and very very good for a beginner. The Listz however when the basic, 4:3, is incorrect throughout, it is a painful listen. He is rushing and its far too hard. What a shame.

Oh I know Moo. I am really only talking about his experimental method of learning. Not about the specific results he has achieved. I think he picked pieces which are too hard to use his learning method on, and he further crippled himself by insisting on not learning any musical notation and not wanting to follow any of the composer's directions (e.g., articulation, dynamics, etc.). It reminds me of the recent machine learning programs that strive for world champion strength in a game after only learning the rules of that game. Not sure this knowledgeless learning technique is as effective when used for an aesthetic activity such as music making/piano. But I can certainly imagine his basic techniques used in combination with some of the elements that he shunned to actually be rather effective.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810016
02/02/19 08:31 PM
02/02/19 08:31 PM
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Moo :) Offline
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Whatever he is doing, this certainly is a skill. I myself have never 'memorised' anything and can only play Fur Elise from memory. I perhaps think the piece choice is wrong. Does he have a teacher or is this all solo ?

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810022
02/02/19 08:41 PM
02/02/19 08:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Whatever he is doing, this certainly is a skill. I myself have never 'memorised' anything and can only play Fur Elise from memory. I perhaps think the piece choice is wrong. Does he have a teacher or is this all solo ?

He flies solo using Synthesia as at least an initial guide. See the PW thread(s) I linked where he describes his methodology that he invented for himself.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810027
02/02/19 08:46 PM
02/02/19 08:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 38
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Offline OP
AnthonyPaulO  Offline OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 38
New York, NY, USA
See, this is what I'm talking about. Here's an area where someone is experimenting with a new way to learn and has made remarkable progress in a short amount of time. I do not have the ability to say whether or not it's good, and a couple of you guys have mentioned mistakes and issues with the playing, but nonetheless you both agree this is phenomenal progress for a beginner. I wonder if ideas like this, paired with a really good teacher, would revolutionize the learning process.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810038
02/02/19 09:12 PM
02/02/19 09:12 PM
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Moo :) Offline
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The Chopin Etude which has up down pattern is very good for the experience. I dont think I can play this piece and dont think I could do much better with about 14 years lessons. I suspect his method may work for this sort of piece where the difficulty is a fast finger pattern. However the Listz and the quite a lot of the other pieces have some fundamental major problems with the basics. I would think it would be better to pick simpler pieces and polish them properly. I dont understand the logic or the rush to play hard pieces not well. I'll keep an open mind and sent him a message on reddit. Should be an interesting discussion if there is a response.

Last edited by Moo :); 02/02/19 09:19 PM.
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810039
02/02/19 09:16 PM
02/02/19 09:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I'll keep an open mind and sent him a message on reddit. Should be an interesting dicussion if there is a response.

I also sent him an email and asked him to join us in this thread.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810042
02/02/19 09:25 PM
02/02/19 09:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 744
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Moo :) Offline
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Moo :)  Offline
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Well I think I'm right, piece choice is the problem.

The first half is absolutely fantastic.



Second half - without pedal - would also be fantastic.

Lets hope there is a response.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810045
02/02/19 09:31 PM
02/02/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
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baudelairepianist Offline
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It should be noted that the instruments and the recording device are of poor quality.
It is far more difficult to play "musical" when playing from memory.
Most of the pieces were learned and performed in 2-3 weeks from memory.

It's a bit unfair to compare the quality to others who have spent far more time per piece.
My method is far faster than traditional methods in getting a piece to 80%
The last 20% is simply a matter of more hours/experience polishing each piece on an expensive grand piano

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810049
02/02/19 09:44 PM
02/02/19 09:44 PM
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Moo :) Offline
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Hello, thank you for joining smile

I didnt mention the piano or the device, I dont own an expensive piano or expensive recording devices either, this was Tyrone.

Are you dead set on your method then and so not open to any suggestions ?

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810052
02/02/19 09:48 PM
02/02/19 09:48 PM
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baudelairepianist Offline
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There definitely is a lot of inefficiency in the traditional methods :

music sheets ~ Synthesia is far faster
scales/exercises ~ irrelevant since technique is relative to the piece
slow practice with gradual metronome ~ results in speed walls and wastes more time/effort per piece

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810055
02/02/19 10:02 PM
02/02/19 10:02 PM
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Moo :) Offline
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Moo :)  Offline
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I think as a beginner yes you can perhaps learn faster your way synthesia way as learning to read music can be difficult. However you may never learn to read music you will never learn how useful it is. Once you can do it, you can pick up and learn pieces instantly. I flick through books and just play them. Its a very nice skill to have.

I think scales and arpeggios I'm not sure about. I have not practised these at all in several years but I grew up on them. I do think perhaps my faster scale and arpeggios are a bit weak now because I never practice them. I tend to learn from pieces now but I wouldnt suggest for a beginner.

Slow practice is very good for accuracy. You iron out the problems. But yes gradual increase with metronome I've never used that. I think I had a metronome as a child but it was one of the big tick tock ones and used to annoy me. I increase the tempo by feel. We had a video the other week for the techniques we use to develop speed.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810061
02/02/19 10:15 PM
02/02/19 10:15 PM
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Posts: 23
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baudelairepianist Offline
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I am open to suggestions and would love answers to question such as...

What type of repetition is best suited for:

speed/accuracy
memorization
musicality


What are efficient ways of:

working through the piece
preparing a recital such as the 24 Chopin etudes


Regarding my recording of Liszt consolation 3,
I prefer the faster tempo
I only spent about 5 hours total (2-3 weeks)
When I record the piece I am more focused on hitting the right notes and buffering the next measure while keeping track of the section.

I will polish the pieces in the future since it is more important to build a repertoire.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Moo :)] #2810063
02/02/19 10:33 PM
02/02/19 10:33 PM
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Posts: 23
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baudelairepianist Offline
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The main reasons why I didn't bother learning to read sheets were

I only want to perform from memory.
I want to play pieces I like.
I don't care to perform a Urtext rendition.

thus Synthesia is more efficient

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810064
02/02/19 10:33 PM
02/02/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 9
Tomsk, Russia
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Andrey@Siberia Offline
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Andrey@Siberia  Offline
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Tomsk, Russia
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by John305
If you have an iPad you can use the keyboard on GarageBand.


That's true, but I draw the line there, need some tactile feedback. However, I can imagine something along those lines, integrating software with a small device like the PT-1 and a built-in screen so that you can learn to play notes through some Guitar-Hero-like game and other types of lessons/games. I would think this would open up piano playing to the masses since such a device would be perfect on long train/bus commutes. Sit down, put keyboard on lap, plug in the headphones, and get your daily practice during your 1 or 2 hour commute. When you get home you incorporate the proper stretching and finger pressure on a real piano or digital piano with weighted keys and voila! As a software engineer the idea is intriguing but I leave it to you veterans to see if the idea actually has any merit, perhaps I'm missing something.


You can go with a portable wireless MIDI keyboard (like AKAI LPK 25, or its equivalent - I believe there is a ton of them around). You can pair it with your iPhone/iPad, install some piano sampler and you can put it on your laps and play while you are taking a subway train.

However, I can agree that it does not make too much sense. Playing piano is not just about stomping the keys. When you play a more or less serious piece, you want not just "take a note A", but have the piano to sign it, moan it, whisper it or shout it. In other way, finding a location of a particular note on a keyboard is just 10% of success, the remaining work is to play this note in the way you need. It is a big difference if you hit a key with a finger or move your finger to the key and transfer the weight of your hand to it.

On a cheap MIDI keyboard no matter how you play, it will sound more or less the same (maybe you can control the volume, but not the sound). Another problem is when you put it on your laps, you won't be able to place your hands properly.

So it can help you finding proper notes more or less quickly, but I believe in several months you won't have this problem. In this case, you may want to look for the keys which size is more or less close to your piano.

I am from the software engineering industry too, so I understand the desire to go a geeky way. Maybe it will be helpful for you to get a portable keyboard, learn how to use it with iOS devices, etc. It may be useful in future if you decide to learn how to record your music and stuff like this.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: baudelairepianist] #2810071
02/02/19 11:28 PM
02/02/19 11:28 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
cmb13 Online content
Silver Level
cmb13  Online Content
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
Originally Posted by baudelairepianist
I am open to suggestions and would love answers to question such as...

What type of repetition is best suited for:

speed/accuracy
memorization
musicality


What are efficient ways of:

working through the piece
preparing a recital such as the 24 Chopin etudes


Regarding my recording of Liszt consolation 3,
I prefer the faster tempo
I only spent about 5 hours total (2-3 weeks)
When I record the piece I am more focused on hitting the right notes and buffering the next measure while keeping track of the section.

I will polish the pieces in the future since it is more important to build a repertoire.


Baudelairepianist -

I cannot answer the questions you posed. However, I have to admit I'm impressed with your ability given the limited time you state you've put into piano and into these pieces - did you say 5 hours to memorize the entire Liszt piece? That's really remarkable; you must be of superior intelligence to have learned the entire thing without even understanding the piece, in terms of chord structure, key modulation, etc.

I would suggest, if you're open to suggestions, that a little effort into musicality can really transform your playing from hitting the right notes into beautiful music. A teacher could help you with this, or some forum members could offer some suggestions to tweak the musicality. It's up to you.

Finally, I would like to present you with a perspective on sheet reading you may not have considered. Learning to play a complicated piece without learning to read sheet music is like memorizing a Shakespeare play like Hamlet without knowing how to read. It can be done, but if you want to learn another one, say Macbeth, you have to begin the process again from scratch. When you learn to read sheet music, you can play anything you'd like to, just as you can now read any book you'd like. That's what Moo was getting at....I'm not there yet, but moving along.


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Andrey@Siberia] #2810072
02/02/19 11:30 PM
02/02/19 11:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 171
Mars
90125 Offline
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Mars
Originally Posted by Andrey@Siberia
On a cheap MIDI keyboard no matter how you play, it will sound more or less the same (maybe you can control the volume, but not the sound).

Who told you that? It is completely wrong.
Originally Posted by Andrey@Siberia
I am from the software engineering industry too,

Eh, you should've been able to understand the meaning of the velocity in the MIDI note on event.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810075
02/02/19 11:35 PM
02/02/19 11:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 171
Mars
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90125  Offline
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Posts: 171
Mars
[quote=AnthonyPaulO[I purchased the Kawai MP6 because at the time it was the digital piano most like a piano without taking up a huge amount of real estate.I wanted something of quality that felt just like a piano and that I can move around or stow away if necessary. I never researched what instruments Hornsby used because I knew that buying his instruments wasn't going to make me a great musician nor turn me into a Bruce Hornsby. I already know I will never be as good as Hornsby, he has devoted his life to this and for me this will be a hobby not a career. It will be many years before I can even attempt to perform that song the right way, and honestly I don't know if I will ever achieve such mastery over the instrument to play it with the non-chalance he seems to be able to play it, but I can always dream.
[/quote]
Thanks for responding. I now understand your techno-phobia towards the musical instruments. Many people professionally involved in programming or IT look into music as a respite from the technological pressures they face at work. The last thing they need is following the technological developments affecting their hobby.

Last edited by 90125; 02/02/19 11:36 PM. Reason: fixed formatting
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2810096
02/03/19 12:42 AM
02/03/19 12:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 9
Tomsk, Russia
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Andrey@Siberia Offline
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Andrey@Siberia  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2019
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Tomsk, Russia
Well, ok, you are right. You may control volume and velocity. Still not enough for the realistic piano performance.

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