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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809848
02/02/19 02:02 PM
02/02/19 02:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,072
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Online content
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NobleHouse  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,072
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Thanks to all for the advice! I went to my first piano lesson last night, she didn’t want me to study anything before hand, catch me raw and green under the ears to see how I learn. Started by writing down some notes and showing me what they mean and having me play them, c d and e, and the fractional notes (don’t know what the proper terminology is but there’s four of them from quarter note up), first with right hand then with both bass (left) and right. It was only 15 minutes worth on the piano but at the end she said I learn fast and that I can skip about 6 months worth of lessons. She gave me some homework and I’ve signed up for long term lessons, half hour long once a week. I’m excited!

She did, however, at the very beginning before even testing me, dash my dreams of seeing how fast I can do fur Elise like that guy in the video at 3 weeks; I was really looking forward to that challenge even though I know it’s unrealistic. She said that there’s more to just learning to play those notes, that there’s so much more that I should learn as a foundation before I should tackle that, and that fur Elise would be something that should be tackled around the 2 year mark, not because it’s technically difficult (she said it’s not hard) but that there’s a lot more involved that I’m not aware of to perform it properly in a way that would not insult heir Beethoven himself. She’s a traditionalist and I respect that, but I wish there was a way I could learn the right way *and* try my hand at matching the YouTube guy’s progress. Maybe it’s a stupid male testosterone challenge kind of thing going on but it does serve as fuel for the fire, lol!

Anyway, I’m really excited, I purchased the adult adventures in piano workbook and some flash cards so let’s see what happens. I plan on reading theory and practicing it during my train commute using iPhone apps and the flash cards, but I was wondering if there’s a mini keyboard that you guys use to practice during commutes, something really small and practical. I remember the Casio PT-1 keyboards back in the 80s and that seems to be perfect; what do you guys use nowadays?


Sounds like you found a good teacher for yourself! Good Luck and enjoy your journey!


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Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809852
02/02/19 02:08 PM
02/02/19 02:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 221
Southeast USA
P
Progman Online content
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Progman  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 221
Southeast USA
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO

Haha, thanks Progman! I agree, there are no shortcuts, and I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm looking for something analogous to a "get rick quick" scheme. What I'm aiming for is a style of learning best suited for my goals and optimizing my learning so that I'm working smarter rather than harder, so to speak, which will result in learning more given the same amount of effort.


You hit the 'nail on the head'. One of my goals for this year is to become really excellent at practicing. All that information is on this forum. As mentioned previously take a look at Keselo's 'nothing is too easy' and also check out Holly's Practice Diary (both on ABF). I was astonished to learn the technique of alternating your practice pieces every other day for more efficient learning - it totally makes sense. It will take months at least for you figure out what works best for you - just remember to enjoy the process as you go along.

With that being said, Keselo is right on that nothing is too easy, but if you are patient and persistent you will be a raving success in due time! I will mention one of the things you want to work hard on for the first months is learning how to count out loud while you play (especially when you get to eighth notes). That is how you get rock solid rhythm which is quite important - a key foundation. Good Luck!


Progman
Baldwin Console + Kawai ES100
Alfreds bk 1 + Teacher
Long Live ELP
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809853
02/02/19 02:10 PM
02/02/19 02:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by John305
Maybe a keytar is the answer for your commute. If nothing else, it will definitely will be a conversation starter.


Hahaha! No no no, it has to be small and practical to lug along, lol! Seriously though, I’m surprised they don’t make mini keyboards with a few programmable keys so you can practice during commutes. The pt-1 is the only one I can find that has a headphone jack and is small enough to tote around. I see some modern midi keyboards that would fit the bill but they don’t work standalone.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809856
02/02/19 02:22 PM
02/02/19 02:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Hahaha! No no no, it has to be small and practical to lug along, lol!

Here! Problem solved!

Besides, look how versatile it is:



across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809859
02/02/19 02:27 PM
02/02/19 02:27 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,419
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Posts: 22,419
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
[...] it has to be small and practical to lug along, lol! Seriously though, I’m surprised they don’t make mini keyboards with a few programmable keys so you can practice during commutes. [...]


Enthusiasm noted and appreciated. I think you have to give some more serious thought to how impractical this idea really is.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809865
02/02/19 02:41 PM
02/02/19 02:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 398
The Netherlands
K
Keselo Offline
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The Netherlands
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
[...] She said that there’s more to just learning to play those notes, that there’s so much more that I should learn as a foundation before I should tackle that, and that fur Elise would be something that should be tackled around the 2 year mark, not because it’s technically difficult (she said it’s not hard) but that there’s a lot more involved that I’m not aware of to perform it properly in a way that would not insult heir Beethoven himself. [...]

That's about the best advice you could wish for. A teacher is not there to tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear. The fastest way to progress is what may feel like the slowest way.

Learning to play the piano is not a race and it shouldn't be about "I want to match X and do Y after Z months". It should be about playing beautiful music, about setting yourself up for success. If you keep at it and diligently work on your basics, you'll get to play Fur Elise in due time (if you still want to by then). You'll also realize at that point how limited that guy's performance of the piece really is. The only thing it has going are the bragging rights of "I played Fur Elise after 3 weeks". Nothing else.


I've started playing January 2017, Nothing is too easy is where I keep track of my progress.

[Linked Image]
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Keselo] #2809871
02/02/19 02:51 PM
02/02/19 02:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Originally Posted by Keselo
The only thing it has going are the bragging rights of "I played Fur Elise after 3 weeks". Nothing else.

I think it would be ironic if his teacher in his university preparatory class were to make him relearn it to play it properly! laugh


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: BruceD] #2809880
02/02/19 03:06 PM
02/02/19 03:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
[...] it has to be small and practical to lug along, lol! Seriously though, I’m surprised they don’t make mini keyboards with a few programmable keys so you can practice during commutes. [...]


Enthusiasm noted and appreciated. I think you have to give some more serious thought to how impractical this idea really is.

Regards,


Hey Bruce! Would you kindly elaborate? I used the PT-1 when I was a child, it's very small, I can sit down on a bus or train and place this on my lap and practice. It obviously won't give me the practice I need for dealing with weighted keys and finger stretching, but it should help with the rest. Am I missing something?

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809887
02/02/19 03:16 PM
02/02/19 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 363
Chicago
J
John305 Offline
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Posts: 363
Chicago
If you have an iPad you can use the keyboard on GarageBand.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: John305] #2809894
02/02/19 03:31 PM
02/02/19 03:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by John305
If you have an iPad you can use the keyboard on GarageBand.


That's true, but I draw the line there, need some tactile feedback. However, I can imagine something along those lines, integrating software with a small device like the PT-1 and a built-in screen so that you can learn to play notes through some Guitar-Hero-like game and other types of lessons/games. I would think this would open up piano playing to the masses since such a device would be perfect on long train/bus commutes. Sit down, put keyboard on lap, plug in the headphones, and get your daily practice during your 1 or 2 hour commute. When you get home you incorporate the proper stretching and finger pressure on a real piano or digital piano with weighted keys and voila! As a software engineer the idea is intriguing but I leave it to you veterans to see if the idea actually has any merit, perhaps I'm missing something.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809914
02/02/19 04:29 PM
02/02/19 04:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,382
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
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dmd  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,382
Pennsylvania
Anthony:

What I and others are trying to say is …..

Your enthusiasm is great and understandable but misguided.

You are best served with by attending your lesson each week, going home and practicing on your piano at home for a bit each day and leave it at that.

You are bubbling over with ways in which you can increase the rate at which you progress.

Stop doing that.

It may lead to disappointment and depression when your progress does not match your expectations.

Try to make learning to play piano just another thing you are doing with your life …. not the cornerstone of your existence.

Set aside time each day for practice and then live your life in an otherwise normal fashion. (i.e. cool it)

If you do that, I think you will be pleasantly pleased in 6 months / 1 year.

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809917
02/02/19 04:37 PM
02/02/19 04:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 97
Long Island, NY
A
AssociateX Offline
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 97
Long Island, NY
Welcome to the board! You are a fellow New Yorker (I took lessons at the Bklyn Conservatory of Music in my teens and now live and work on Long Island), so having a teacher is really a great idea. I am more of a lurker than postere here on PW (so many of my questions are already answered once I do a forum search).

I agree going with a keyboard for now is a good start, once you get more experience playing on different pianos, you may want to upgrade to an acoustic which is really one lf the bestways to polish those skills with dynamics and tone.

Last edited by AssociateX; 02/02/19 04:38 PM.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Completed:
1. Schubert -Moments Musicaux #3
2. Bach- Prelude & Fugue (F Minor - WTC 2)
Next Project:
1. Rachmaninoff- Prelude op 32/5
2. Chopin Nocturne op 48/1
*************************************
My YouTube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNj0Yha5exOWuJMTezV3t8Q
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: dmd] #2809924
02/02/19 05:09 PM
02/02/19 05:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by dmd
Anthony:

What I and others are trying to say is …..

Your enthusiasm is great and understandable but misguided.

You are best served with by attending your lesson each week, going home and practicing on your piano at home for a bit each day and leave it at that.

You are bubbling over with ways in which you can increase the rate at which you progress.

Stop doing that.

It may lead to disappointment and depression when your progress does not match your expectations.

Try to make learning to play piano just another thing you are doing with your life …. not the cornerstone of your existence.

Set aside time each day for practice and then live your life in an otherwise normal fashion. (i.e. cool it)

If you do that, I think you will be pleasantly pleased in 6 months / 1 year.

Good Luck



I don't understand why I'm being shut down here. If the concern is that I will become depressed at my progress not matching my expectations then please remove that from your system because it definitely will not happen to me. I'm a 45 year old extremely practical and logical/rational adult that is not given at all to flights of fancy or bouts of depression. Please do not worry about my mental welfare, trust me, I'm a rock, I'll be fine, and I understand that my goals will most likely take many years to attain, so if I set myself some impossible challenge it is something I relish despite not being able to achieve it and does not in the least bit dampen my spirits. On the other hand, if I achieve the impossible then I'll feel great that I've achieved the impossible.

That being said, is there no room here for improvement? Is there no way to improve our methods of teaching/learning? Should we stop looking at innovation that's been made possible due to advances in technology that did not exist before? I feel that this question is being ignored and overlooked in light of my "irrational exuberance and cute but misguided enthusiasm" as a piano neophyte so I ask that we all play along with me for a while.

Pretend that I'm not a piano neophyte; instead, I'm a 45-year old software engineer that's been programming since the age of ten and can develop all manner of software for desktop and web over a variety of operating systems and computers. Imagine that I'm a tinkerer able to create hardware/software utilizing micro-controllers such as the arduino, raspberry pi, and teensy and can invent all sorts of devices. Imagine also that this tinkerer's latest project is taking a run-of-the-mill Keurig coffee machine and hacking it so that it can respond to voice commands and serve multiple servings of whatever beverage you ask for by plucking the correct k-cup from a custom k-cup dispenser using a custom robotic arm, automatically feed it into the keurig, and serve the beverage on a custom carousel that rotates so that you can serve up to 8 servings of different flavors at a time; all this without user intervention, all by voice command. Imagine that this tinkerer comes along to your forum and reads your conversations regarding the current state of teaching/learning on the piano and wants to start a conversation on how he can apply his skills to improving what we already have and potentially come up with a new device that will help people utilize their commute time more efficiently by allowing you to practice during these long commutes.Would you tell this tinkerer that there is no need for this as we have already reached the pinnacle of piano learning/teaching? Or would you say that there's potential here and sit down and have a conversation? If there's no potential here then I can accept that, but please don't mistake me for some naive young man that's overly enthused with some new toy and thinks he can move mountains with his bare hands.

Any thoughts? laugh

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: dmd] #2809939
02/02/19 05:55 PM
02/02/19 05:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 97
Long Island, NY
A
AssociateX Offline
Full Member
AssociateX  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 97
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted by dmd
Anthony:

What I and others are trying to say is …..

Your enthusiasm is great and understandable but misguided.

You are best served with by attending your lesson each week, going home and practicing on your piano at home for a bit each day and leave it at that.

You are bubbling over with ways in which you can increase the rate at which you progress.

Stop doing that.

It may lead to disappointment and depression when your progress does not match your expectations.

Try to make learning to play piano just another thing you are doing with your life …. not the cornerstone of your existence.

Set aside time each day for practice and then live your life in an otherwise normal fashion. (i.e. cool it)

If you do that, I think you will be pleasantly pleased in 6 months / 1 year.

Good Luck



This is rather harsh. When starting to learn a new instrument, its is natural to feel excited and a little bit unprepared for where the journey takes you. When I took up piano lessons again 2 years ago at age 40, I was so excited I went and bought 10 new Henle piano books (including Chopin Polonaises, Ballades amd Debussy Estampes) and sure there are 2 which I have yet to sight read for fun but I know they will be there when I have my technique up to that level. Maybe you have seen plenty of beginner piano students lose motivation or experience frustration when learning to play, but this is an aspect every pianist has encountered and will continue to encounter as they progress with technique and skills. Perhaps you assume too much with Anthony. He is excited and I think he is in the right board to post and seek feedback on his journey. There really is no reason for this negativity!!!

Last edited by AssociateX; 02/02/19 05:58 PM.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Completed:
1. Schubert -Moments Musicaux #3
2. Bach- Prelude & Fugue (F Minor - WTC 2)
Next Project:
1. Rachmaninoff- Prelude op 32/5
2. Chopin Nocturne op 48/1
*************************************
My YouTube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNj0Yha5exOWuJMTezV3t8Q
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809947
02/02/19 06:37 PM
02/02/19 06:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Any thoughts? laugh

Yes. How can I get one of those universal beverage machines?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AssociateX] #2809949
02/02/19 06:41 PM
02/02/19 06:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by AssociateX

This is rather harsh. When starting to learn a new instrument, its is natural to feel excited and a little bit unprepared for where the journey takes you. When I took up piano lessons again 2 years ago at age 40, I was so excited I went and bought 10 new Henle piano books (including Chopin Polonaises, Ballades amd Debussy Estampes) and sure there are 2 which I have yet to sight read for fun but I know they will be there when I have my technique up to that level. Maybe you have seen plenty of beginner piano students lose motivation or experience frustration when learning to play, but this is an aspect every pianist has encountered and will continue to encounter as they progress with technique and skills. Perhaps you assume too much with Anthony. He is excited and I think he is in the right board to post and seek feedback on his journey. There really is no reason for this negativity!!!


That’s all right, I understand where he’s coming from and I know he said it with good intentions, and I’m sure I gave the wrong impression at some point so I deserve it, but I hope I’ve clarified my position.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809951
02/02/19 06:42 PM
02/02/19 06:42 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,353
Florida
cmb13 Offline
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cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,353
Florida
FWIW, The Way It Is was on my list, but my musical focus and goals have changed as I've been learning. Maybe I'll get back to it one day, but for now I'm focusing on pieces that further my musical education rather than just for fun. As I've learned, I've really shifted my focus to classical music, and btw, I began at the same age you are now, about 4-5 years ago.

Your teacher sounds good, reasonable, and focused in the right direction. Good luck, and welcome to the forum!


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin 28:15
Tchaikovsky Seasons: October

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2809953
02/02/19 06:52 PM
02/02/19 06:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
AnthonyPaulO Online content OP
AnthonyPaulO  Online Content OP


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 160
New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Any thoughts? laugh

Yes. How can I get one of those universal beverage machines?


ROFL! Sorry, only one exists on this planet, but I would love to commercialize a version with a streamlined feeding mechanism that doesn't require a robotic arm.

Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809968
02/02/19 07:33 PM
02/02/19 07:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,847
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Any thoughts? laugh

Yes. How can I get one of those universal beverage machines?

ROFL! Sorry, only one exists on this planet, but I would love to commercialize a version with a streamlined feeding mechanism that doesn't require a robotic arm.

Rats!

Well, then I'll just have to make do using more traditional methods until you commercialize.

If you are as willing to experiment on yourself as you obviously are on your coffee machine, there are those who have tried applying machine learning and optimization methods to learning piano. One example is baudelairepianist on this PW forum. You can read about his self-invented methods here:
Notable milestones showing example results using his methods from his Youtube channel include: (ignore the out-of-tune piano - this piano in a university practice room is obviously not being well-maintained)

Chopin, Prelude No. 8 Molto agitato, in F# minor, Op. 28, which he recorded at the 3-month point of his experiment in piano learning:



Chopin, Étude in C Major "Waterfall," Op. 10 No. 1, which he recorded at the 4-month point:



Liszt, Consolation No. 3, Lento placido, in Db Major, S.172, which he recorded at the 5-month point:



He's not as active on this forum, but if you want to discuss further his methods with him, you can PM him over on Reddit where he posts regularly on Reddit's r/piano subreddit.

(You probably already note obvious difficulties in the videos above with technique, rhythm, musicality, etc. However, some of these are because he has really restricted his personal choices by, for example, refusing to learn musical notation including even simple dynamics and articulation, choosing to not focus on musicality in the initial phases of his experiment, etc. These are some examples of experimenter bias, not necessarily limitations of his methods nor what they might be used to achieve in other hands.)


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Inspired to learn! Need advice on approach [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2809997
02/02/19 08:40 PM
02/02/19 08:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 194
Mars
90125 Offline
Full Member
90125  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 194
Mars
Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
perhaps I'm missing something.

Yes, you seem to be missing one key distinction about this forum. This forum mostly isn't about music as an art form. It is about music as a competitive sport. To maintain fairness in the piano competition everyone agrees to compete using the piano technology as it stood at the end of XIX century.

In your initial posting you linked to the video of Bruce Hornsby playing somewhat complicated arpeggios on the acoustic piano. Now answer this question: your goal is to:
  • look like B.H. playing piano when somebody watches your hands over the keyboard;
  • sound like B.H. when playing live using the modern keyboard technology?

The same question could be re-phrased into: do you wan to:
  • learn to play arpeggios by hand on an acoustic piano or similar digital equivalent;
  • learn how to program the arpeggiator on a modern instrument that would sound similar but demand much less from the pianist technique?

It is really you who needs to make that choice.

Also, please answer why you bought rather dumb instrument like Kawai MP6 to learn playing the keyboard? Have you researched what instruments B.H. played during that time? It wasn't only Steinway D, it was also Oberheim OB-X and Korg M1. Have you read the thread on this forum from 2006 about his keyboard setup:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/273148.html

Why you didn't buy a Korg Kronos/Kross/whatever else is the modern keyboard workstation that the players like B.H. use live? Did you actually read the liner notes on his CDs that typically enumerate what instruments everyone was playing, especially the keyboards where the technological progress was the most obvious?

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