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Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 #2807121
01/26/19 06:43 PM
01/26/19 06:43 PM
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Djangi Offline OP
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I have been lurking this forum quite some time now but never had anything useful to post. I was hoping that anyone can offer some advice about the Kawai ca-67 and the ca-78.

I have been saving up for a Kawai mp11se which I finally tried out in the store today. I wanted a slam/stage piano due to the on hands controls and the ability to play multiple midi devices without sacrificing good action. Unfortunately I wasn't blow away by the action which I why I ended up trying several digital console pianos.
I really fell in love with the Kawai ca-78. I didn't expect the difference between grand feel 1 and 2 to be so great. The mp11 felt good, but I wanted to keep on playing on the ca-78.

While the ca-78 might just be within my budget, it very expansive which is why I'm looking for alternatives. One of the stores here still has the ca-67 in stock and it is a lot more affordable, its a 900 euro difference. The question is, is there a killer feature that makes ca-78 worth the price difference or should I just go for the cheaper ca-67 since it has the same action and shares most of the specs.

Thanks.

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Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807127
01/26/19 07:04 PM
01/26/19 07:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,236
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Have you tried the CA67?
Because I wonder if the difference you felt between the MP11SE and the CA78 was really because of the rather small differences between the GF and the GFII, or if it was also because of the (arguably) better responsiveness/realism of the CA78's new sound engine in pianist mode.
Or if you did not try the CA67 itself, did you try the CA78 in sound mode (which then is essentially identical to the CA67)?

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: JoBert] #2807137
01/26/19 07:33 PM
01/26/19 07:33 PM
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Djangi Offline OP
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Hi JoBert, thanks for your reply.

I must admit that I don't know. I played around with different instruments(mainly the grands) and a few virtual technician settings but wasn't aware of a "pianist mode" so I might need to try it out again. It was mainly the feel of the keys that made the ca78 stand out. The pedals are also a bit stiffer. The ca78 also sounded a bit better on my headphones(Beyerdynamic dt-770) although that might be resolved with a bit of tweaking.
I didn't try the ca67 since it's only a available in a different store, it takes a pretty long a drive to get there. Might check it out next week(if still available).


Last edited by Djangi; 01/26/19 07:33 PM.
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807146
01/26/19 07:58 PM
01/26/19 07:58 PM
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DonZon Offline
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If its mainly the action your concerned with, the CA 67 has the same action as the CA 78.
Also, the sounds are the same. For a 900 euro difference, I would make a bee-line to the store with the CA 67 and buy it.
Its basically the same instrument without the touch screen and mabey a few other bells and whistles you'd have to look up.
But the important things are the same.


Kawai CA67- Kawai ES8 MIDI'ed to a Korg Kronos 61
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807149
01/26/19 08:09 PM
01/26/19 08:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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If you go try out the CA78 again:

In the bottom left corner of the display there's an icon labelled "pianist". Select this to play in pianist mode. This mode uses the newer sound engine. You can then swipe the main area of the display left/right to select different versions of pianist mode (called "rendering characters"), like Classic, Romantic, Full, etc.

Or select the "sound" icon at the bottom, just beside the pianist icon. This selects the "older" sound engine. This engine, and the sounds available in it, is identical to the CA67. Swipe left/right/up/down in the main area to select the various instruments. This essentially allows you to test if you would like the CA67 without actually playing it, by switching the CA78 into sound mode. That allows you to do two things:

1) Repeatedly switch between sound mode and pianist mode to see if you like the pianist mode so much more than sound mode, that you are willing to pay the higher price for the CA78. If yes, then your choice is made. CA78 it is. Because the new pianist mode is the one killer feature, as you called it, that the CA78 has over the CA67. But if that killer feature is not important for you, i.e. if you can live without the pianist mode, then it boils down to CA67 vs. MP11SE. So:

2) Determine if the CA67 (=CA78 in sound mode) really feels better than the MP11SE (because the latter also has the same sound engine as is used in sound mode, and the main piano voices are also the same). If yes, by all means, go for the CA67. It still is a fine piano, very much identical to the CA78, only without pianist mode, touch screen and Bluetooth (the latter can be added with a dongle).
If you actually don't find a big difference between the CA67/CA78-in-sound-mode and the MP11SE, then you probably *did* pick up on the better pianist mode sound engine, when you determined that you like the CA78 better than the MP11SE. Then you are back to step 1) to determine if that is enough of a killer feature for you. If you still don't think so, then the MP11SE would be back on the menu, I guess.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by DonZon
If its mainly the action your concerned with, the CA 67 has the same action as the CA 78.
Also, the sounds are the same. For a 900 euro difference, I would make a bee-line to the store with the CA 67 and buy it.
Its basically the same instrument without the touch screen and mabey a few other bells and whistles you'd have to look up.
But the important things are the same.

As explained above, that is not true. The sounds are not the same, because the CA78 has the new pianist mode.

Last edited by JoBert; 01/26/19 08:12 PM.
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807171
01/26/19 09:12 PM
01/26/19 09:12 PM
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DonZon Offline
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Jobert,

If you read the OP, he asks if the CA78 is that much different than the CA67
Like, 900 euro's different?
They both have the same SK-EX samples. CA78 has an enhanced sound mode.

Not worth it to me for the same sample sounds, with some enhancement.
But he already played the 78, so he should go play the 67 and
hear for himself.

Im cheap, Id buy the 67 and save the 900 euro's.


Kawai CA67- Kawai ES8 MIDI'ed to a Korg Kronos 61
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: DonZon] #2807233
01/27/19 04:33 AM
01/27/19 04:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
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Djangi Offline OP
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Thanks for all your feedback. I hope to can try out the ca67 next week. To be continued...

Btw, does any of you like the touchscreen. It's far more intuitive than regular buttons, especially for virtual technician. However, I'm wondering how long the screen will last. Somehow it feels cheaper/less durable.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: DonZon] #2807531
01/27/19 09:43 PM
01/27/19 09:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,497
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by DonZon
If you read the OP, he asks if the CA78 is that much different than the CA67
Like, 900 euro's different?
They both have the same SK-EX samples. CA78 has an enhanced sound mode.


I believe the CAx8's "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine is a considerable improvement over the CAx7's "Harmonic Imaging XL" sound engine. It offers multi-channel sampling, a more advanced resonance system, and is more responsive in general.

In addition, the CAx8 hardware is also completely different to that of the CAx7, with more sample memory, higher quality components, and audio processing/amplification technology provided by Onkyo.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Kawai James] #2807603
01/28/19 05:18 AM
01/28/19 05:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
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Djangi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by DonZon
If you read the OP, he asks if the CA78 is that much different than the CA67
Like, 900 euro's different?
They both have the same SK-EX samples. CA78 has an enhanced sound mode.


I believe the CAx8's "SK-EX Rendering" sound engine is a considerable improvement over the CAx7's "Harmonic Imaging XL" sound engine. It offers multi-channel sampling, a more advanced resonance system, and is more responsive in general.

In addition, the CAx8 hardware is also completely different to that of the CAx7, with more sample memory, higher quality components, and audio processing/amplification technology provided by Onkyo.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks for your feedback James. I'm going t try the ca67 tomorrow to be to feel the difference but I have the feeling that I might prefer the ca78. This is going to be expensive.

I was wondering if you know the maximum impedance of the headphone amp in the ca78 (or maybe both models). I want to know if I can power 250ohm headphones without external amplification.

Thanks,

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807606
01/28/19 06:02 AM
01/28/19 06:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,497
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Djangi
I was wondering if you know the maximum impedance of the headphone amp in the ca78 (or maybe both models). I want to know if I can power 250ohm headphones without external amplification.


I have not tested this personally, but I raised this topic with a colleague who tested the CA98/CA78 with various different headphones, and he believes that there is sufficient power to drive high impedance headphones.

My recommendation would be to bring your own headphones when testing the insturment(s) to ensure you are satisfied with the headphone output.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Kawai James] #2807650
01/28/19 08:39 AM
01/28/19 08:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
My recommendation would be to bring your own headphones when testing the insturment(s) to ensure you are satisfied with the headphone output.

Good advice on bringing your own headphones.

It should probably also be noted, that both the CA67 and the CA78 have a menu setting where you can select between "normal" and "high" impedance headphones. So if the sound should be too low initially, go into the menu and change that setting to "high".

On the CA78, tap the settings menu icon in the top right corner (the "burger icon") and then go to the "Sound Settings" menu and look for "Phones Volume".
On the CA67, press the middle button below the display (the one which in the display is labelled "Menu") and then scroll down to the "Phones Settings" menu and in that menu look for "Phones Volume".

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807666
01/28/19 09:26 AM
01/28/19 09:26 AM
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Djangi Offline OP
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Good advice. The only problem is that I don't have the headphones yet that I intend to use. I currently own the Beyerdynamic dt770 32ohm edition. I inden to buy the dt990 (80 or 250 ohm) later on. But good to know that I can actually change the headphone output.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2807807
01/28/19 01:38 PM
01/28/19 01:38 PM
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karvala Offline
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Headphone amp in the CA67 is okay for driving 300ohm headphones, so 250 should be okay.

Two key things to think about when making a decision between the CA78 and CA67 is (1) the extent to which you'll use the onboard speakers; and (2) the extent to which you'll use the builtin sounds. If you're planning on playing mostly the builtin sounds through the onboard speakers, I think the CA78 is definitely worth the extra cost. If you're planning to mostly play software pianos (VSTs) from another source through headphones, it's definitely not worth the extra. If you're planning one but not the other, then it's more of a judgment call.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: karvala] #2808086
01/29/19 06:12 AM
01/29/19 06:12 AM
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Djangi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by karvala
Headphone amp in the CA67 is okay for driving 300ohm headphones, so 250 should be okay.

Good to know that I wont be limited by the headphone amp.

Originally Posted by karvala

Two key things to think about when making a decision between the CA78 and CA67 is (1) the extent to which you'll use the onboard speakers;

I usually play at night and since I have two daughters(0.5 and 4) that need their sleep headphones is the way to go for me. I will probably play on speakers occasionally.


Originally Posted by karvala

and (2) the extent to which you'll use the builtin sounds. If you're planning on playing mostly the builtin sounds through the onboard speakers, I think the CA78 is definitely worth the extra cost. If you're planning to mostly play software pianos (VSTs) from another source through headphones, it's definitely not worth the extra. If you're planning one but not the other, then it's more of a judgment call.

I actually never considered playing VST on my piano although I do own a few freebees that came with my audio gear(daw, audio interface, midi hardware). But I will probably mainly use the build in instruments.

To add a bit of context (as far as that matters):
Until 2 weeks ago I owned 2 pianos. A small Ritmuller upright and a Kawai es110. I started out on the Kawai which sounds (over headphones) and action are pretty good for its price but the action is very light in comparison to the piano of my teacher (Yamaha b3), which I why I bought the Ritmuller. Also, to get more experience on a real acoustic instrument.
Unfortunately, this caused same issues with my neighbor and as state previously I mainly play in the evening/at night.

So now I sold both and want a digital instrument with good action as a replacement which lead me to the Kawai mp11, ca67 and the ca78.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2808152
01/29/19 10:24 AM
01/29/19 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Djangi
Good advice. The only problem is that I don't have the headphones yet that I intend to use. I currently own the Beyerdynamic dt770 32ohm edition. I inden to buy the dt990 (80 or 250 ohm) later on. But good to know that I can actually change the headphone output.


I have a ca98 that afaik uses the same headphone amp as the ca78. I use it with beyerdynamic dt990 250 ohm headphones. The amp can drive these without problem. Note that you can select between normal and high headphone amplification in the settings. Wih 250 Ohm you will need the high setting. The normal setting works fine with 32/80 Ohm.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2808489
01/30/19 05:59 AM
01/30/19 05:59 AM
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Djangi Offline OP
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So, I tried out the ca67 which is also very good. I do prefer the sound of the ca78 but I don't know if that is worth and additional 900 euro investment. I guess I have some thinking to do.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2808494
01/30/19 06:49 AM
01/30/19 06:49 AM
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Posts: 118
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Mosotti Offline
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900 euros might sound a lot. But you have to consider how much will you keep this piano. If it's 5 years, then it's 15 euros per month. If it's 10 years, then it's 7.5 euros per month. We are talking about peanuts money, not really an "investment". Also if you sell it I assume you'll get a better price than the CA67.

So I would clearly go for the better sound, the touchscreen, and better resell value, for 15 euros per month.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: DonZon] #2808500
01/30/19 07:09 AM
01/30/19 07:09 AM
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Djangi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DonZon
If you read the OP, he asks if the CA78 is that much different than the CA67
Like, 900 euro's different?
They both have the same SK-EX samples. CA78 has an enhanced sound mode.

What is your experience with the ca67. Are you happy with the built in sounds? Also, do you use internal or external speakers?

Last edited by Djangi; 01/30/19 07:11 AM.
Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Mosotti] #2808525
01/30/19 08:33 AM
01/30/19 08:33 AM
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Djangi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mosotti
900 euros might sound a lot. But you have to consider how much will you keep this piano. If it's 5 years, then it's 15 euros per month. If it's 10 years, then it's 7.5 euros per month. We are talking about peanuts money, not really an "investment".


Hi Mesotti, thank you for your input but I don't see the logic in this rhetoric, although I do think it's a good pitch for credit card companies.
Firstly, I can justify about every purchase this way but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to or are capable of spending this kind of money right now.
Secondly, if you do apply this rhetoric you should it right and look at the whole sum: 5 years = ±47 euros per month, 10 years = ± 23 euros per month.

Originally Posted by Mosotti
So I would clearly go for the better sound, the touchscreen and better resell value

I agree that the sound improvement might make the investment worthwhile but it's not a night and day difference. It's just more refined.
I don't see the touchscreen as a big improvement. It's more accessible than navigating buttons by menu but it's not a high quality screen, and it can be a bit jumpy. I'm a bit worried about the screens lifespan. I also noticed audible cracking while switching sounds which don't didn't occur with the ca67 button menu.
And concerning the resale value. More resale value for a bigger investment or less resale value for a smaller investment. They will probably cancel eachother out.

It would be much easier of the price difference was smaller. A good case of the right thing to do versus the smart thing to.

Re: Kawai ca-67 or ca-78 [Re: Djangi] #2808534
01/30/19 08:59 AM
01/30/19 08:59 AM
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JoBert Offline
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You are right, it really comes down to if you like the improvements in the new pianist mode enough for 900€.

Were you able to test the CA67 directly against the CA78?

If not, it is fortunately very easy to do and you don't even have to get up and sit down at different pianos: Go back to the shop where they have the CA78 and play it extensively, while regularly switching between pianist mode and sound mode (and in sound mode, select the SK-EX Concert Grand). If you can live with having only the sound mode, then go for the CA67. Or if you want both modes, then CA78 it is.

For what it's worth (just anecdotal "advice"):

I used to have the CA97. When the CA98 came out, I personally did not upgrade to the CA98, "just" for the pianist mode. The loss in value that would have incurred (the difference between buying a new, fresh-to-market and therefore still expensive CA98 and selling a used CA97) would likely have been a lot more than 900€.
(Instead, I waited for something even better - either the next CS generation that would be comparable to the CA78/98, or, as was already on the horizon at that time, the Novus NV10, which I indeed ended up upgrading to.)
However, if I now would have the same choice to make as you, i.e. not upgrading from one to the other, but deciding between the two, I would select the CA78. Because personally, I find the pianist mode does indeed make a big difference. Since I upgraded to the NV10 (from the CA97), I have essentially not used the sound mode pianos at all, anymore (FYI, the NV10 has the same sound engine and pianist/sound modes as the CA78/98, so I can make the comparison between pianist/sound mode and to the CA67/97 generation from direct personal experience). I only ever play in pianist mode. I really think it is a serious improvement, not just 'the same samples with "some enhancements"', as was said by a poster above. But that is a very personal opinion, of course.

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