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Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? #2806569
01/25/19 01:05 PM
01/25/19 01:05 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
N
Nek Tanner Offline OP
Junior Member
Nek Tanner  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
I'm an adult beginner, but took lessons as a child. I've been playing for about one year. I'm looking for a decent piano that will last me for the next 15 years or longer.

I spoke to a Kawai sales rep and he has me thinking a new piano is a much better option for the long term than used. The ND21 would cost me around $6300 CAD, including tax, two free tunings and removal and disposal of my old piano. Is this an okay price?

I've seen used pianos from a Kawai K15 for $2800 to a Yamaha U1 for $5000, but they're 20-30 years old which scares me off a bit.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

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Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2806583
01/25/19 01:38 PM
01/25/19 01:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 15
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ThomasG Offline
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ThomasG  Offline
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Generally, 20-30 years old is fine if kept in right conditions. For Yamaha U1's caution is needed as they are the go to practice pianos for many schools. You don't want a 20 year old school piano, as they have been used for tens of thousands of hours by that time. If they were placed in a home, though, 20 years is a fine age generally.

At that price range, buying new is not ideal. You should be able to get a good used Yamaha U1 or Kawai K3 (most common competitors in the price range), those models tend to be of high quality. If they were kept in good condition, which is quite easy to get inspected by a technician, they will perform almost as if they were new. If you're a bit lucky, you might be able to get a used Yamaha U3 or Kawai K5, or any of their competitors.

You're definitely sitting at a price range where you could easily get a good used 46" - 48" upright, but with chances of getting that taller premium upright, which tend to sound noticeably better in my experience. Used pianos generally offer good bang for buck because they don't depreciate much in value if well maintained (after the first 10-20 years). It's a good idea to look for used pianos, and don't be scared too much by age. If you get an independent technician to check out the piano, they will tell you the condition, how long the piano should last before it requires any work done, and if any work needs to be done on it.

Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: ThomasG] #2806634
01/25/19 03:28 PM
01/25/19 03:28 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
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Nek Tanner Offline OP
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Nek Tanner  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2018
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Toronto, Canada
Thank you for your reply. Good to know that about Yamaha U1's.

Wasn't sure about a decades old piano, have heard and read different things. But as you say, each one should be independently examined by a qualified technician, and a 30 or even 40 year old piano can still be a good instrument.

Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2806692
01/25/19 05:59 PM
01/25/19 05:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 15
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ThomasG Offline
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ThomasG  Offline
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Exactly! It really depends though. As far as uprights go, unfortunately they tend to be 'forgotten' for extended periods quite often. Once a piano is left uncared for for a couple of years, even if it's picked up again afterwards, the condition of the instrument will never be the same. A piano which is maintained (even if not played) well could easily last 100 years with all the original components. Unfortunately, for uprights, that is hardly ever the case.

Nowadays we see these common Yamaha and Kawai models that originally got their popularity in the 60's and 70's being rebuilt/thrown away for the first time. Based off this, and the fact that generally, the later 70's and 80's models are still popular on the used market, we can conclude that these instruments have a lifespan of about 50-60 years. Their quality really is something to behold when you consider the fact that they were mass produced. On the higher end spectrum, you have companies like Steinway, just to name one, producing uprights that can easily last over a hundred years if cared for well.

So all in all, don't be too scared by age, more so by the actual condition. Age is merely a guiding factor up to a certain extent.

Yamaha and Kawai stand out on the used market due to consistent quality models for the past decades, my personal preference being Kawai, any technician can tell you the craftsmanship in those things is phenomenal for models so (relatively) cheap and with high production numbers.

Good luck finding a suitable instrument!

Last edited by ThomasG; 01/25/19 06:01 PM.
Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2806701
01/25/19 06:23 PM
01/25/19 06:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
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KurtZ Offline
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KurtZ  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
The ND-21 is not on the Kawai North Americal website but is on the Kawai Austrailia website. If you do buy it as new, verify with Kawai US (US and Canada) that it carries full factory warranty support. Just because it's at a canadian kawai dealer doesn't mean it didn't come in as a "grey market" piece. From the specs, it's a little taller but a lower spec than the K15. I know new sounds good but not necessarily better if you drop down to an indonesian built "value" line. It's a Kawai, it won't be a bad piano but with $6300, you're in the range of less than 10 year old K5 or U3 or even newer K3 and U1s--pianos that come from the "professional" series of the respective builders.

Kurt


**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2806783
01/26/19 12:06 AM
01/26/19 12:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,389
Orange County, CA
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member
KawaiDon  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,389
Orange County, CA
The ND-21 is not sold in the US, but it is available to dealers in Canada. It is very similar to the K-300, but is made in Indonesia and the piano is optimized for quick production, so a lower cost. But it does carry the full Kawai warranty and support.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: KurtZ] #2806862
01/26/19 09:55 AM
01/26/19 09:55 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
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Nek Tanner Offline OP
Junior Member
Nek Tanner  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
I wondered why the US website didn't list the ND21, thank you for the info, I'll double check the warranty and support with Kawai US.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any K3's or K5's in my market, I'm assuming they don't come up for sale very often, but would certainly jump on one if one became available.

Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2806917
01/26/19 11:32 AM
01/26/19 11:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 15
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ThomasG Offline
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ThomasG  Offline
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You're right, it is unfortunately pretty rare to find older used Kawai's on the market. Up until recently, they haven't been direct competitors to Yamaha really, the older models were good, but off the top of my head I can't remember them being close to as popular as Yamaha's models up until the start of the century.

I'd suggest going to a store to try them out, they are pretty much polar opposite brands. Yamahas tend to have a pretty heavy feel and also have ''big'' sound. The more popular Kawai models on the other hand tend to have a lighter touch and more mellow sound. It's impossible to describe with words though, best thing to do is go test them out for yourself. You may be able to find a good used K3 or K5, but your better bet is a U1 or U3 (in your price range aim for U3).

I'd suggest you look at the US market as well, you may very well be able to find something within range of transportation there, as long as you don't have to transport it overseas, the costs don't differ all that much.

Last edited by ThomasG; 01/26/19 11:33 AM.
Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: KawaiDon] #2807163
01/26/19 08:44 PM
01/26/19 08:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
K
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member
KurtZ  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,794
The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted by KawaiDon
The ND-21 is not sold in the US, but it is available to dealers in Canada. It is very similar to the K-300, but is made in Indonesia and the piano is optimized for quick production, so a lower cost. But it does carry the full Kawai warranty and support.



I hope I wasn't seen as a fear monger but being on the service end with digital pianos, I have a relationship with these kinds of issues.

I'm glad that Don clarified the issue.

As an authorized Kawai digital service center, I can attest that Kawai's dedication to customer satisfaction far surpasses the norm for the industry.

Kurt


**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Opinions on a new Kawai ND21? [Re: Nek Tanner] #2807810
01/28/19 01:45 PM
01/28/19 01:45 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
N
Nek Tanner Offline OP
Junior Member
Nek Tanner  Offline OP
Junior Member
N

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4
Toronto, Canada
Called Kawai USA, kept getting transferred to different departments since it seemed no one could answer my question, but eventually I had someone confirm that the ND-21 does carry the full ten year warranty.

Thank you everyone for your replies, much appreciated.


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