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a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe #2803770
01/18/19 10:46 PM
01/18/19 10:46 PM
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Hamburg-D Offline OP
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Hello, I want to share some new strange "black art magic" theory that I learned about 4 years ago and have been practicing and perfecting ever since.
I leared this from Stefan Knupfer, the technician from the documentary Pianomania.
Appearantly, there is alot more than meets the eye in this documentary, it turns out that Stefan uses a very rare method to create good tone in the piano.
From what I was told, he is not the only one who uses this method, and there are perhaps a handful technicians in Europe that use this method.

In a weird way, him, and I suppose the other handful of tech who utilize this method sort of look down at any other technician, almost like laughing at them, which is a strange attitude - why not just make this information public and to everyone right?

Before I dive into this theory, I have confirmed it with 2 other sources. 1st is a mastertech in steinway Hamburg who pretty much said: "I know about this special technique and it takes many years to develop and even the world's best techs cannot handle this technique, and neither have I".
The other source is the head of the PTG equivalence in Austria, who mentioned he knows of this strange method, but sort of alluded that it's bogus (if I interpreted his tone correctly).
So I will share with you the basics, which is good because maybe some will like it, and some will say it is nonsense which is ok. But perhaps some of you maybe have heard of it?
So brace yourselves, this will be long, but very mind opening (I hope).
The concept is simple. Making the soundboard free to vibrate for longest tone possible. Not only longest, but most overtones. Not high overtones (bright) and not low overtones (mellow) but BOTH. Every note should make all overtones and overtones should be long, and loud as possible.
A soundboard that is not “happy to vibrate” lets imagine is somehow constrained, the strings will not sustain long, and will not have many overtones. Of course we can artificially make high overtones by making hammers hard, but now we moved overtones to the top, and took away the bottom.
I am talking about natural open sound with ALL overtones.
Here is how most pianos have a constrained soundboard.
Imagine the bridge and we have A4 which is flat now vibrate at 420hz. So we tune up to 440hz. What happened now is we pull the bridge to us, towards the keyboard sound. So bridge now is “tilting” towards keyboard. Of course not visually, but just imagine.
So same scenario, we need 100lb tension to make A4 to 440HZ. Now we have 90lb tension so we are at 420Hz.
Now we have to imagine that the string between bridge and aliquat bar is 90hz. So both segments are 90hz. Let’s define segments – 1st segment from pin to a graph, 2nd segment is from agraph to bridge (speaking length) and 3rd segment is from bridge to plate, or hitch pin or aliquat bar depending on piano.

So again – piano is flat not tuned for a few months, weather changed etc. Now A4 is 2nd segment 90lb, and 3rd segment 90lb with 2nd segment pitch at 420Hz.
So we turn hammer and increase tension to 100lb on 2nd segment now we have A440Hz but here is the problem – 3rd segment maybe go to 92lb. So try to imagine how the bridge is being pulled towards pianist – towards keyboard. Probably tuners here can understand the huge amount of tension on any piano and can understand how all strings, having un-equal tension between 2nd and 3rd segment can add to A LOT of stress on the bridge.
So up to here is just physics, and probably not philosophical but now lets keep going.
How do we want the bridge to “stand” being pulled towards keyboard? We think completely vertical, even pressure not forwards, not back-words – for best most efficient transmission of sound from string, to bridge, to soundboard. When bridge is not pulled forward, and not pulled backwords, soundboard can vibrate freely and now every note will have the most possible overtones, loudest overtones and what some of us call “full sound”. Also sustain will increase a lot.
Keep in mind – all these changes to tone are without talking about manipulating hammers. No talk of hammer. They joke how techs mess around with hammers trying to get a better tone, where in fact the issue all along is a non-vibrating soundboard.
So imagine some notes there is more tension on the 3rd segment compared to 2nd, and some neighboring notes, it’s the other way around. So in some sections bridge is pulled back, and some sections bridge is pulled forward. So they say “twisted bridge”. A twisted bridge just kills the free vibration of the soundboard.
So how do they fix this issue? Through tuning. They don’t turn the tuning hammer just to match pitch of note, they tune and manipulate 3rd segment tension to find best magic equal tension that makes the string sustain long, with most possible overtones.
To adjust tension in 3rd segment is basic, with tuning hammer pull up fast (ok ½ step sharper than target) go down slow. To make less tension – pull down fast (maybe 2 steps) and pull up SLLOWWW.
You can pluck 3rd segment string and see how you changed it’s pitch = tension.
The art of this is how they “decide” to make more or less tension in 3rd segment. It’s all done by careful listening of each string, and experimenting. When you get good, your ear can immediately hear – too much tension, or not enough. For me, after 4 years of tuning this way, it can still take me 2-3 minutes to find perfect balance of tension for best sound.
If you keep doing this on the entire piano, you slowly untwisted the bridge. And every time you tune the same piano, you will untwist more and more, and every note will be longer and fuller – especially noticeable in 5th-6th octaves.

There is so much more to this of course – maybe I shared 1%. Through these 3rd segment tensions they can manipulate the overtone pitch of a particular note, without altering the pitch of the fundamental, so they can make the piano more harmonious as a whole and minimize inharmonicity and stretch issues.

Anyway I’ll stop here….
Anyone heard of this before? Experimented? Mastered?

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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2803775
01/18/19 11:21 PM
01/18/19 11:21 PM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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This might work if you only had one string on the bridge. The trouble is a piano must have several hundred strings. We usually only change tension one string at a time. Thus all the other tensioned strings are holding the bridge, (via the hitching length), against the tilting force on the bridge from changing the tension of one string.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2803777
01/18/19 11:24 PM
01/18/19 11:24 PM
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Interesting thought. Wouldn’t it be easy enough to test part of this idea on the ‘3rd’ segment by simply checking the pitch?

It makes me wonder though... If the tension varied much in the 3rd segment on pianos with aliquots, wouldn’t that negate the point of tuning that portion of the string? Wouldn’t manufacturers and designers notice this phenomenon pretty quickly? Or maybe it’s already common knowledge.

Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2803805
01/19/19 02:18 AM
01/19/19 02:18 AM
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I"m always interested when someone reports a phenomenon. I'm understanding this as a real-world situation where people are doing this and noticing a difference (Is that right, OP?)

That being said, i'm skeptical of the explanation. I'm open to the possibility that something is really happening and this process may be of practical use to add to our 'bag of tricks".

Given that none of us have a full theoretical understanding of how pianos actually work, we all need to set aside our supposed understandings and theoretical constructs and evaluate the phenomenon.

At this point, I'd like to hear from others who actually try the technique to see what happens.
Then, after we verify that something is actually happening, we can proceed to generate theoretical constructs as to exactly what it is that we have observed happening.

Of course, I'm going to try it myself.


Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: kpembrook] #2803808
01/19/19 02:42 AM
01/19/19 02:42 AM
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Hamburg-D Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
I"m always interested when someone reports a phenomenon. I'm understanding this as a real-world situation where people are doing this and noticing a difference (Is that right, OP?)

Yes - this is not theoretical according to me, Stefan knupfer, another person I know, and the mastertech at the Hamburg Steinway factory. It is a noticeable difference.

For example on my piano there are a few bad notes. C#6, and E5 are the worst. C#6 for example if I have a dead on unison will sustain for 3 seconds which is pathetic. C6 and B6 will sustain well above 8 seconds. Applying this technique, by ironing out the soundboard throughout the piano and making sure the bridge sits perfect vertical, C#6 sustain to about 11-12 seconds which from 3 seconds is un-unmistakably a big difference. I can also quite easily make C#6 go back to sustain 4 seconds by making the WRONG 3rd segment tension on itself and neighboring notes which will effect it greatly.

I want you guys to look at this thread. It's fro 2010 about a person complaining about killer octave short sustain: He wrote:

" I have been told by a german technician that it can be caused by false tensions in the bridge/soundboard system. He wrote to me: "If you pull a string up to the correct pitch it slides
over the bridge. Due to friction the bridge will follow the string a little little bit. So a little bending and twisting of the bridge (and the soundboard) will occur IF the tuner is not skilled enough to prevent this. 90 years tuning the piano... it's a lot of twisting and bending, always in the same direction. The bridge/soundboard system is so wrongly tensed that it can not function properly anymore...."

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...e-tensions-in-the-bridge-soundboard.html

This is the only other source I ever saw on the internet describing this specific philosophy and technique.

That being said, I 100% understand any skepticism, and being skeptic about such thing is rational, and also rational to further investigate as you have noted...

I'm curious to see if any european technician would see this and chime in because it is very obvious at least in america this method may not exist, not even as an idea.




Last edited by Hamburg-D; 01/19/19 02:43 AM.
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2803892
01/19/19 10:21 AM
01/19/19 10:21 AM
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There is a logic to the concept. A localized change in soundboard impedance could affect the tone of a specific note. I question whether the 3rd segment tension of a single string or trichord could cause that impedance change. But, a number of 3rd segments in a area, or even more randomly distrubuted might cause a convergence of tension, creating an impedance change at a spedific point on the soundboard.

My own piano has tuned aliquots. They were tuned at the factory and haven't changed significantly in 10 years. I assume, therefore, that whatever tension inequalities that where put into the 3rd segments (it would be hoped - none) by the tech/tuners is still there. Also, since I vary the temperament regularly, all the strings get reasonable adjustments in tension (except A4) on a regular basis, and the tuned aliquots follow the temperament, meaning that the tension is equalized, since they are ratio based.

That being said, I and many others here (historically) have mentioned adjusting tone by changing the NSL tension relative to the SL tension.

Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2803972
01/19/19 01:36 PM
01/19/19 01:36 PM
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Caveat: I am a complete novice regarding tuning and manipulating sound qualities of a piano.

I find the theory of the bridge being left twisted and in a non-natural state of tension from the movement of strings during tuning to be plausible. And, that assertion that this twisted state can diminish the bridge's ability to transmit string vibrations to the soundboard also seems plausible.

My initial, amateur idea would be to occasionally tune the piano so all the fundamentals are correct. Then, with a hook or other device over which the strings can slide easily, lift the strings at a point as close to the bridge as possible, and then set them back down. My hope would be that this procedure would equalize the tension in OP's segment 2 and segment 3.

The piano would then need another pass with the tuning hammer, and, though this second pass might re-introduce tension disparities between the segments 2 and 3 on any given string, those disparities would be very minimal since the second pass would require only very small tension adjustments of the tuning pins.

This reminds me of discussions on this board about "rendering" the strings, which I thought (mistakenly?) was a procedure to overcome the tension disparities OP is talking about.

Last edited by Ralphiano; 01/19/19 01:37 PM.

Ralph

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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Ralphiano] #2804007
01/19/19 02:35 PM
01/19/19 02:35 PM
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Hamburg-D Offline OP
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Thanks for all the replies thus far, but still we haven't found another person on this forum that maybe has heard of this method / philosophy...

I found 1 more post made actually recently about the same issue but they perhaps did not explain properly because the OP was from germany - again, some coincidence?

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2750407/problem-bridge-turned-torque-maybe.html


I want you to imagine a violin where you will install a new bridge. On a violin the bridge will never be glued, just sits steady from down-force of strings.
When you install bridge you will loosen all strings. You will place new bridge, put all 4 loose strings over the bridge. Then you start pitching up.
If you talk to any violin friends they will tell you as they pitch tension up, bridge will start to fall down. Fall towards left side - towards tuning pin. Then they must adjust bridge to make it vertical again, and keep pitching up. again and again. If you don't adjust the bridge at all, it will literally fall.

Ralph, your idea with hooks philosophically is good.but to lift strings over bridge may be difficult? I never tried. I will try today!

But here is where it gets more interesting, the philosophy is not just about equal tension and the bridge being 100% vertical, not leaning, for maximum efficiency of transmission of sound. If we add tension in the 3rd segment, we PRESS down on the bridge as well. So more tension is pressing more, and less tension, we press less.
Well, in some areas of the piano we may want to press more, and in some areas press less! Take for example the ribs.
On my piano a rib intersects E5, C#6 and of course maybe 15 other notes. I think I have 17 total ribs. Where the rib is, we may want more pressure, or less pressure than the neighboring notes! So just making tensions between 2nd and 3rd equal is not 100% our goal.

The technique they use over there is just by sound. You take 1 string and play very soft so we don't hammer voicing will be less of a factor. Play ppp and listen carefully and long.
Then try to make 3rd segment less tension and listen and compare. Then make 3rd segment high tension and listen and compare - and try to find the golden middle!
Then move on to next string, and next note. After 5-6 notes, you can go back to your original one, and see a big big difference because it is impossible to make 1 note sound good because you just made bridge - better. But if you do 5-6 notes around, you can go back to the original note you started with and it will sound alot better.

If you loosen as much tension from 2nd segment as possible you will have short tone, loose sounding - hard to describe. If you make 2nd segment tension as tight as possible, again you will have short tone, but tight sounding.
It is hard to hear difference between maximum least tension, and maximum high tension. We want to find the middle, where it sounds best, longest, most overtones.

Anyway, enough about the technique, there is not enough information I wrote to apply properly.
I can say this if any tech wants to experiment. Loosen all base strings 2nd segment. As loose as possible. This we know is the case - not much listening required. Just pull down each bass note 2 full steps very quickly, and pull up slowly. Do that to the entire coiled bass section 2 times in a row, and you will hear the best bass sound you ever heard. Hard to describe, but the overtones will really come out strong, including the fundumental / root. All of it together!

Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804057
01/19/19 04:11 PM
01/19/19 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamburg-D
...

Anyway, enough about the technique, there is not enough information I wrote to apply properly.
I can say this if any tech wants to experiment. Loosen all base strings 2nd segment. As loose as possible. This we know is the case - not much listening required. Just pull down each bass note 2 full steps very quickly, and pull up slowly. Do that to the entire coiled bass section 2 times in a row, and you will hear the best bass sound you ever heard. Hard to describe, but the overtones will really come out strong, including the fundumental / root. All of it together!



H-D you may not take my answer seriously and I would not blame you. When I saw you mention "black art magic" and especially "In a weird way, him, and I suppose the other handful of tech who utilize this method sort of look down at any other technician, almost like laughing at them, which is a strange attitude - why not just make this information public and to everyone right?" I could not imagine that the technique would be anything like advertised. It stinks of obvious elitism. So I only breifly scanned the posts. Nevertheless, I did notice something pertinent the last paragraph of the your last post, which I quoted.

The technique that you mention is very similar to what some do to enliven old, dead sounding bass strings. They lower the note an octave (!) bang it vigorously and bring it back up to pitch. It probably knocks some dirt from between the windings and imparts fresh internal stress to the bass string. It will work for a while, but nothing is permanent. The bass will be unstable for maybe a week, but is much improved. An old technique freshened with pixie dust.

I think I'll just butt out of this Topic now.


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804091
01/19/19 05:44 PM
01/19/19 05:44 PM
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Rockville, MD
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Quote
The technique they use over there is just by sound. You take 1 string and play very soft so we don't hammer voicing will be less of a factor. Play ppp and listen carefully and long.
Then try to make 3rd segment less tension and listen and compare. Then make 3rd segment high tension and listen and compare - and try to find the golden middle!
Then move on to next string, and next note. After 5-6 notes, you can go back to your original one, and see a big big difference because it is impossible to make 1 note sound good because you just made bridge - better. But if you do 5-6 notes around, you can go back to the original note you started with and it will sound alot better.

If you loosen as much tension from 2nd segment as possible you will have short tone, loose sounding - hard to describe. If you make 2nd segment tension as tight as possible, again you will have short tone, but tight sounding.
It is hard to hear difference between maximum least tension, and maximum high tension. We want to find the middle, where it sounds best, longest, most overtones.

Interesting.

If I do the math correctly on this based on something (I think I read this in your original post), this technique adds 2 to 3 minutes per 3rd string, so, a tuning would take at least 2.5 hours, maybe closer to 3 hours, using this method? (60 * 2 = 120, 60*3=180, etc).

You write "The technique...is just by sound. You take 1 string and play very soft...and listen carefully and long".

It would certainly help me understand this better if you could record and post for us at least one string for us using the Goldilocks method : too LOOSE, too TIGHT, just RIGHT.

Looking forward to read what others discover.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804107
01/19/19 06:20 PM
01/19/19 06:20 PM
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Thus far this COULD make some sense on an instrument where tge backscale utilizes rear aliquots, e.g. Steinway. Is this supposed to work also on instruments that have their back scale muted with cloth, therefore not freely vibrating? If so, how? I'm curious, and inclined to experiment.

Why not quickly perform a pitch raise that leaves everything 2-4 Hz (maybe more) too high, then lower it just as quickly, then find the goldilicks zone?

It sounds a bit to me like a method I heard of many years ago to tune the "duplex" (rear aliquot) section, ostensibly to enhance the sound. Not out of the realm of possibility.

Pwg


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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804201
01/19/19 11:17 PM
01/19/19 11:17 PM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Since I can not see any reason this "Black Arts" technique would work, and I can see lots of uneeded wear to the strings and pin block employing it would produce, I am not interested in experimenting with it. I would also never want any technician to touch one of my pianos with this technique.

This is the kind of "reasoning" that reduces the professionalism if the field. Again, I will state the obvious, since there are several hundred strings holding the bridge where it is, changing the tension of one of them is not going to twist the bridge. The force differences are too large and the bridge/soundboard is too stiff.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 01/19/19 11:17 PM. Reason: typos again

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2804208
01/19/19 11:27 PM
01/19/19 11:27 PM
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Hamburg-D Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Since I can not see any reason this "Black Arts" technique would work, and I can see lots of uneeded wear to the strings and pin block employing it would produce, I am not interested in experimenting with it. I would also never want any technician to touch one of my pianos with this technique.

This is the kind of "reasoning" that reduces the professionalism if the field. Again, I will state the obvious, since there are several hundred strings holding the bridge where it is, changing the tension of one of them is not going to twist the bridge. The force differences are too large and the bridge/soundboard is too stiff.


No Ed, you are right. They admit this technique bi-product is they brake strings quite often. Pulling up sharp, and pulling down low - like bending a paperclip over and over, so that is definitely a negative.

But that being said, I think you misunderstood and not read my post carefully. Changing 3rd segment tension on 1 string, or 1 note will not untwist the bridge to a healthy natural way. You keep doing runs through the piano, and slowly the bridge will un-twist. So if we imagine the entire bridge speaking length has higher tension than bridge to hitch pins, we can imagine that bridge is being pulled towards keyboard.

Increasing tension in the 3rd segment on 1 note, will not move the bridge. Well - it will, but very very little. If you keep increasing tension in the 3rd segment on all the notes, the bridge will go back to vertical.

Not wanting to experimenter with a method that you can imagine hurts a piano, is understandable. But imagine a twisted bridge, perhaps the pianos the have this method applied are in-fact healthier?

Also - this is alot of work of course and probably not worth investing if you are tuning grandma's upright. But the technician's in the konzerthaus in vienna and berlin philharmonic apply this technique - and maybe they got too much time on their hands and for a 10% increase in sustain, it is worth the hassle? Who knows?

Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2804213
01/20/19 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Since I can not see any reason this "Black Arts" technique would work...


That is the case with a lot of theories that people have around here.

However, in this case, I will sometimes test the back duplex area by strumming on them to see that they are at reasonably close pitch to make sure that the string is not caught at the bridge, especially on recently strung or new pianos, to make sure that the tensions have equalized. If they have not, the piano will not stay in tune well, as the string moves across the bridge after I have finished tuning.


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Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804272
01/20/19 07:19 AM
01/20/19 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey

It sounds a bit to me like a method I heard of many years ago to tune the "duplex" (rear aliquot) section, ostensibly to enhance the sound.


Originally Posted by Hamburg-D

the technician's in the konzerthaus in vienna and berlin philharmonic apply this technique


I guess these technicians apply it indeed to tune the rear duplex.

In the German language the phenomenon of tiliting bridges is known as "Stegkippen". As far as I remember it´s an issue in the stringing process, not in the tuning process. I never heard of twisted bridges, nor of untwisting a bridge by the tuning method as described above. As mentioned: that method is used to tune the duplex.


piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804296
01/20/19 09:51 AM
01/20/19 09:51 AM
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daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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This reminds me of what I was experiencing when I was doing work for a piano dealership back in the 1980's.

When I would do the initial floor tuning on vertical pianos from a certain manufacturer, I experienced major problems. The pianos would come in out of tune, but reasonably close to pitch, considering what they must have gone through while being shipped. After I would start tuning one, some strings would drop wildly in pitch as I pulled the tension up. Obviously, the segment from the bottom bridge pin to the hitch pin was much lower in tension than the speaking length.

I remember being amazed at how this could be possible. I tried deliberately trying to do this, but I was unable. All these years later, I suspect that those factory tuners used an extremely light blow when tuning. Then, when the piano was on the showroom floor, equalizing the tension was the floor tuner's problem.

This also puts me in mind of impact tuning. There are several methods described as impact tuning. The method I was shown involved rapidly jerking the tuning hammer, in a controlled way, the exact moment the hammer strikes the string.

This was supposed to give several advantages:

It was supposed to cause less wear and tear on the tuner.

It was supposed to be faster.

It was supposed to leave more solid tunings.

One reason for greater stability is because the string is moved at exactly the moment of impact. When the string is vibrating most strongly, when it is most energized, it should have the easiest time sliding past the various friction points, equalizing the tension in the various segments.

I was shown this back in the late 1970's. So, at least 40 years ago, methods were being developed to try to equalize the tension in the different string segments.

I do remember the emphasis being on creating a solid tuning. I can't remember if tonal issues relating to the sounboard and bridges were discussed as well.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804299
01/20/19 10:14 AM
01/20/19 10:14 AM
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daniokeeper Offline
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Excerpt from the original post:
Quote
To adjust tension in 3rd segment is basic, with tuning hammer pull up fast (ok ½ step sharper than target) go down slow. To make less tension – pull down fast (maybe 2 steps) and pull up SLLOWWW.


1/2-step overpull seems like too much. Even if a string doesn't break, it's not impossible to damage it by ovrrpulling.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804374
01/20/19 02:03 PM
01/20/19 02:03 PM
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Posts: 2,545
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Online content
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P W Grey  Online Content
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,545
New Hampshire
Agreed. I don't pull anything more than 10 cents above these days (or at least try not to).

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804470
01/20/19 06:45 PM
01/20/19 06:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,273
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,273
Seattle, WA USA
Yes, 1/2 step above pitch on some portions of some pianos wound strings could put them over the elastic limit.

I suggest to our European friend techs that they investigate if the V-bar is properly shaped to allow of full function of the pivot termination effect described in the 1872 Duplex Scale Patent by Steinway. I suggest they investigate the inerrtia of the hammer and how this impacts tone, touch, durability, stability, dynamics, sustain, and shift pedal function. I have found this a very fertile field for improvements.



Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 01/20/19 06:45 PM. Reason: typos again

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: a "black art" method of controlling tone from Europe [Re: Hamburg-D] #2804530
01/20/19 10:48 PM
01/20/19 10:48 PM
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Posts: 497
Chernobieff Piano Offline
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Chernobieff Piano  Offline
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Posts: 497
First,your not going to improve soundboard performance via tuning. That's something you do when you make the soundboard through proper panel grading, evenly proportioned engineered rib scale, good quality materials. If those are made badly then you ain't going to change much. The rest of your description seems reminiscent of Virgil Smith and his use of the 'natural beat' to bring out the full sonority of the piano.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
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