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Consolation No. 3 Advice #2801264
01/12/19 01:30 PM
01/12/19 01:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
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Alexwm Offline OP
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Alexwm  Offline OP
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Hey everyone this is my first post here, and I wanted to ask some questions:

1) is Liszts 3rd Consolation too difficult for a grade 7 player? I have been able to go through 1.5 pages in 1 day at about 35BPM(supposed to be played at 52). The only struggle I have is combining the two rhythms and playing up to speed.

2) If this is not a recommended piece what other pieces by Liszt would you recommend? I can play up to a mid grade 8 without to much trouble but grade 9+ starts to become tedious, my book includes Standchen, and Liebelslied(the slightly easier transcription which doesn’t look to hard).

Last edited by Alexwm; 01/12/19 01:36 PM.
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Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801266
01/12/19 01:39 PM
01/12/19 01:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,755
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by Alexwm
Hey everyone this is my first post here, and I wanted to ask some questions:

1) is Liszts 3rd Consolation too difficult for a grade 7 player? I have been able to go through 1.5 pages in 1 day at about 35BPM(supposed to be played at 52). The only struggle I have is combining the two rhythms and playing up to speed.

2) If this is not a recommended piece what other pieces by Liszt would you recommend? I can play up to a mid grade 8 without to much trouble but grade 9+ starts to become tedious, my book includes Standchen, and Liebelslied(the slightly easier transcription which doesn’t look to hard).

Maybe cmb13 can give us his view since he said he has been playing piano for 5 yrs and learned that piece a year ago. He made for us in the online piano party this morning a very nice performance of it! smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801272
01/12/19 02:01 PM
01/12/19 02:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
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Alexwm Offline OP
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Alexwm  Offline OP
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Thank you! Hopefully he’s able to respond.

Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801296
01/12/19 02:55 PM
01/12/19 02:55 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,889
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Welcome to the Pianist Corner.

"A grade 7 player" doesn't have significance for many of us reading. What is of more importance is what specific repertoire you have played and how well you have played it.

Moreover, your reference to Ständchen and Liebeslied don't indicate who wrote the transcriptions (although the context suggests you are referring to transcriptions by Liszt); neither was written, originally, for solo piano. What is "your book" that includes these pieces? There are two Schubert Ständchen ("Leise flehen meiner Lieder" and "Horch, horch, die Lerch") that were transcribed by Liszt, both advanced-level repertoire. There is a "Liebeslied" written by Fritz Kreisler for violin and piano or with orchestra and that has been transcribed by - among others - Rachmaninoff: very difficult. There may well be other "Liebeslied" by other composers, but unless you are more specific, how can we know what you are referring to?

As for the Liszt Consolation No. 3, only you can tell if it's too difficult for you or whether, with work, you can master it. In the RCM (Toronto) syllabus, it's considered a Level 10 piece (it used to be level 9). Other Consolations numbers 1, 2, and 4 are rated by RCM as easier than No. 3. There is not much in the Liszt repertoire that is any easier except perhaps the late "Nuages gris."

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801297
01/12/19 03:01 PM
01/12/19 03:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,755
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by BruceD
There is not much in the Liszt repertoire that is any easier except perhaps the late "Nuages gris."

This looks pretty easy:


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801298
01/12/19 03:03 PM
01/12/19 03:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 581
M
Moo :) Offline
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Sounds like from Bruce reply it is too hard.

I'm not sure there are many easy Listz pieces.

Maybe this ?



I'm not really sure what you levels are so it is a bit of a guess but hope it helps !

Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: BruceD] #2801343
01/12/19 05:26 PM
01/12/19 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
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Alexwm Offline OP
Junior Member
Alexwm  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by BruceD
Welcome to the Pianist Corner.

"A grade 7 player" doesn't have significance for many of us reading. What is of more importance is what specific repertoire you have played and how well you have played it.

Moreover, your reference to Ständchen and Liebeslied don't indicate who wrote the transcriptions (although the context suggests you are referring to transcriptions by Liszt); neither was written, originally, for solo piano. What is "your book" that includes these pieces? There are two Schubert Ständchen ("Leise flehen meiner Lieder" and "Horch, horch, die Lerch") that were transcribed by Liszt, both advanced-level repertoire. There is a "Liebeslied" written by Fritz Kreisler for violin and piano or with orchestra and that has been transcribed by - among others - Rachmaninoff: very difficult. There may well be other "Liebeslied" by other composers, but unless you are more specific, how can we know what you are referring to?

As for the Liszt Consolation No. 3, only you can tell if it's too difficult for you or whether, with work, you can master it. In the RCM (Toronto) syllabus, it's considered a Level 10 piece (it used to be level 9). Other Consolations numbers 1, 2, and 4 are rated by RCM as easier than No. 3. There is not much in the Liszt repertoire that is any easier except perhaps the late "Nuages gris."

Regards,


My repertoire at the moment includes:

Beethoven - Fur Elise (teacher forced me to learn because it’s recognizable at any public setting)

Erik Satie - Gymnopedie Nos-1 and 2 (3 is coming along)

Erik Satie - Je Te Veux (80% complete at about 90% tempo)

Chopin - Prelude E Minor, A major, C Minor and D flat Major

Chopin - Waltz in A Minor

Clementi - Sonatina in C Major(all 3 movements)

As for how well I play it, I make sure to play all dynamic markings and try not to sound like a robot, my teacher gets quite annoyed when I don’t feel the music, I’m always trying to understand what the composer was feeling at the time of composition by reading Wikipedia pages about them and biographies. I believe I have played all my pieces to high degree, I find it hard to learn a piece and not master it.

The book I’m referring to is 40 Piano Solos,
https://www.alfred.com/the-professional-pianist-classical-solos/p/00-44279/

Not sure who the Liszt transcriptions are by, I will check when I get home. Thanks for the advice, I really wanna power through this consolation but I don’t want to waste my time and realize it’s far too difficult. Thanks.


Last edited by Alexwm; 01/12/19 05:33 PM.
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801348
01/12/19 05:38 PM
01/12/19 05:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,225
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by Alexwm


Not sure who the Liszt transcriptions are by, I will check when I get home. Thanks for the advice, I really wanna power through this consolation but I don’t want to waste my time and realize it’s far too difficult. Thanks.


The "Liszt Liebeslied S.566" is more commonly known as Schumann/Liszt's Widmung (Liszt's piano transcription of Schumann's song 'Widmung'), and the Ständchen S.560/7 is Liszt's transcription of Schubert's song. Both are definitely way above what you're currently playing, assuming neither has been simplified (and Alfred's blurb says all the pieces in the book are 'in their original form').

But the Consolation No.3 should be within your grasp, if you can master the polyrhythm.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: bennevis] #2801393
01/12/19 08:28 PM
01/12/19 08:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
A
Alexwm Offline OP
Junior Member
Alexwm  Offline OP
Junior Member
A

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by alexwm



The "Liszt Liebeslied S.566" is more commonly known as Schumann/Liszt's Widmung (Liszt's piano transcription of Schumann's song 'Widmung'), and the Ständchen S.560/7 is Liszt's transcription of Schubert's song. Both are definitely way above what you're currently playing, assuming neither has been simplified (and Alfred's blurb says all the pieces in the book are 'in their original form').

But the Consolation No.3 should be within your grasp, if you can master the polyrhythm.


Thanks for this insight, going through liebeslied again I notice that it’s far more difficult than when I first looked over it. Back to the Consolation...I definitely feel as if I have the ‘idea’ of the poly rhythm it’s just a matter of getting used to, as it feels unnatural. Thanks.

Last edited by Alexwm; 01/12/19 08:29 PM.
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801396
01/12/19 08:38 PM
01/12/19 08:38 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,792
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,792
Florida
Originally Posted by Alexwm


My repertoire at the moment includes:

Beethoven - Fur Elise (teacher forced me to learn because it’s recognizable at any public setting)

Erik Satie - Gymnopedie Nos-1 and 2 (3 is coming along)

Erik Satie - Je Te Veux (80% complete at about 90% tempo)

Chopin - Prelude E Minor, A major, C Minor and D flat Major

Chopin - Waltz in A Minor

Clementi - Sonatina in C Major(all 3 movements)

As for how well I play it, I make sure to play all dynamic markings and try not to sound like a robot, my teacher gets quite annoyed when I don’t feel the music, I’m always trying to understand what the composer was feeling at the time of composition by reading Wikipedia pages about them and biographies. I believe I have played all my pieces to high degree, I find it hard to learn a piece and not master it.

The book I’m referring to is 40 Piano Solos,
https://www.alfred.com/the-professional-pianist-classical-solos/p/00-44279/

Not sure who the Liszt transcriptions are by, I will check when I get home. Thanks for the advice, I really wanna power through this consolation but I don’t want to waste my time and realize it’s far too difficult. Thanks.



I'm not an expert; most in the Pianist Corner are way ahead of me, so please take this response from that perspective. I'm responding because I spent a few months studying this piece in detail last year, so it's fairly fresh in my mind, and as Tyrone mentioned, I actually played it on the small online Zoom gathering we had earlier today.

I began the Consolation in Db last year, after about 4 years. I'm not particularly talented but work very hard, and spend a lot of time analyzing, learning scales, chords, etc. I had played the Chopin Preludes in Cm, Em, and Amaj, and Satie Gymnopedie 3, and Fur Elise for reference (mentioning specifically ones you had listed). I also played the Clement but never really liked it.

With that background, I do not think the Consolation was that difficult. Mind you, it took me a few months to learn it well, but I found it within my reach, Furthermore, I feel it helped me grow as a pianist, with regards, to the dynamics, but also the polyrhythms, the double note runs, the octaves, the chord structure, the key modulations; there's a ton of great things to learn in this piece. I also improved my keyboard topography, or learned to play notes with both hands that are several octaves away without looking much more than a quick glance.

If you learned the first 1.5 pages in a day (even at a slow tempo), and have played grade 8 pieces without trouble, there is absolutely no way this piece will prove impossible. I would recommend getting the 3:2 down well before moving on. I would also recommend learning what chord you're playing in nearly all the measures, so when you memorize it, you won't get lost. Then there are some subtleties in the piece that you can pick up on later, such as which measures are "climax" measures, where to soften, etc.

If you're interested, you can start a thread on this piece in the ABF (adult beginner section) as a study piece; I have done this with other pieces and it is very helpful. I'd be happy to pitch in where possible. I had planned on doing that with this piece, but I already completed it, so it never happened.


Boston 118 PE

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Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: cmb13] #2801434
01/13/19 12:01 AM
01/13/19 12:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
A
Alexwm Offline OP
Junior Member
Alexwm  Offline OP
Junior Member
A

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by alexwm




I'm not an expert; most in the Pianist Corner are way ahead of me, so please take this response from that perspective. I'm responding because I spent a few months studying this piece in detail last year, so it's fairly fresh in my mind, and as Tyrone mentioned, I actually played it on the small online Zoom gathering we had earlier today.

I began the Consolation in Db last year, after about 4 years. I'm not particularly talented but work very hard, and spend a lot of time analyzing, learning scales, chords, etc. I had played the Chopin Preludes in Cm, Em, and Amaj, and Satie Gymnopedie 3, and Fur Elise for reference (mentioning specifically ones you had listed). I also played the Clement but never really liked it.

With that background, I do not think the Consolation was that difficult. Mind you, it took me a few months to learn it well, but I found it within my reach, Furthermore, I feel it helped me grow as a pianist, with regards, to the dynamics, but also the polyrhythms, the double note runs, the octaves, the chord structure, the key modulations; there's a ton of great things to learn in this piece. I also improved my keyboard topography, or learned to play notes with both hands that are several octaves away without looking much more than a quick glance.

If you learned the first 1.5 pages in a day (even at a slow tempo), and have played grade 8 pieces without trouble, there is absolutely no way this piece will prove impossible. I would recommend getting the 3:2 down well before moving on. I would also recommend learning what chord you're playing in nearly all the measures, so when you memorize it, you won't get lost. Then there are some subtleties in the piece that you can pick up on later, such as which measures are "climax" measures, where to soften, etc.

If you're interested, you can start a thread on this piece in the ABF (adult beginner section) as a study piece; I have done this with other pieces and it is very helpful. I'd be happy to pitch in where possible. I had planned on doing that with this piece, but I already completed it, so it never happened.


Really appreciate this detailed response. My teacher is also a big fan of me knowing every chord I’m playing in the left hand. And I definitely agree with getting the 3:2 rhythm, once I get that down the piece is not overly complex. Would the best way to practice this be to do scales in 3:2, or is there a better way? On YouTube some people recommend tapping the rhythm with a pen while playing the left hand, while others recommend scales or just playing the piece slowly at 3:2 and bringing it up to speed over time and relying more on muscle memory. I really appreciate the advice, and the detailed response, Thanks!

Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: Alexwm] #2801468
01/13/19 06:58 AM
01/13/19 06:58 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,792
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,792
Florida
As mentioned, I've been thinking of putting together a comprehensive study guide on this piece; let me know if you'd like to join in the discussion here. I've started with the polyrhythms in the second post.

Last edited by cmb13; 01/13/19 07:38 AM.

Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: bennevis] #2801548
01/13/19 12:40 PM
01/13/19 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,889
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Posts: 21,889
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by bennevis
[...]
The "Liszt Liebeslied S.566" is more commonly known as Schumann/Liszt's Widmung (Liszt's piano transcription of Schumann's song 'Widmung')[...]


I have to confess to another "Duh!" moment. Of course I should have recalled that "Liebeslied" in the context of Liszt transcriptions is the transcription of Schumann's "Widmung." I even have a copy of it with that title in a Peters edition of Liszt transcriptions. So, "Duh!"

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Consolation No. 3 Advice [Re: BruceD] #2801577
01/13/19 02:35 PM
01/13/19 02:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,225
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by bennevis
[...]
The "Liszt Liebeslied S.566" is more commonly known as Schumann/Liszt's Widmung (Liszt's piano transcription of Schumann's song 'Widmung')[...]


I have to confess to another "Duh!" moment. Of course I should have recalled that "Liebeslied" in the context of Liszt transcriptions is the transcription of Schumann's "Widmung." I even have a copy of it with that title in a Peters edition of Liszt transcriptions. So, "Duh!"

Incidentally, Clara made her own transcription of her husband's famous song (along with a few other songs from Myrthen), and of course, she is much more faithful to the original and dispenses entirely with the 'extended virtuoso climax' that Liszt tacks on. (We know what she thought of Liszt the Showman grin).

In fact, it looks like she simply adds the vocal part to the piano accompaniment, with minimal alteration:

http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/...Nos1-2-3-7-24-transcr-Clara-Schumann.pdf

So, it looks like a viable easier alternative to Liszt's arrangement, perhaps ABRSM Grade 7/8 standard. I heard András Schiff play it as an encore many years ago.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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