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Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . #2801372
01/12/19 08:07 PM
01/12/19 08:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 72
UK
J
Jt2nd Offline OP
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Jt2nd  Offline OP
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J

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 72
UK
I have been using a Korg Orchestral tuner and when it approaches close to the correct pitch with 2 notes it seems to get confused and read the opposite direction . My ears do the same as the tuner. If two pitches are plucked separately you notice the mistake my ears and the tuner make .
It reads flat when it should read sharp and vice versa . That`s what my ears do as well .

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Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801470
01/13/19 08:04 AM
01/13/19 08:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 764
Finland
C
clothearednincompo Offline
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clothearednincompo  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 764
Finland
Wot? smile

Are you playing two different pitches at the same time? Tuners can only listen to one at a time.

And they don't know what string you are plucking, so if e.g. a string on a guitar is waaaay out of tune the (chromatic) tuner probably just assumes the closest note to be the expected one. Unless of course the tuner allows specifying the target note, which the Korg might do.

Looks like the Korg also allows various temperaments and overall tuning pitches, so is it set up properly for the instrument that you are using it with? (As in A = 440 Hz and so on.)

I actually don't really know anything about the Korg tuner or much about tuners in general, but at least I was confused about the question, so I thought I'll give the discussion a small nudge forwards...

Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801482
01/13/19 08:40 AM
01/13/19 08:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 119
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Andrew_G Offline
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I know nothing about Korg Orchestral tuner, but there is a well known effect wherein two co-sounding piano strings, tuned almost equally but not equally, produce a pulsation when played. Listening to this pulsated sound, it is impossible to know which string tone is higher and which is lower. The greater the difference in string tones, the greater the frequency of pulsation. This is well audible when this frequency is 0.5-2 seconds and inaudible in other diapasons. This frequency can be calculated given the main frequencies of the strings' sound.

Last edited by Andrew_G; 01/13/19 08:43 AM.
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801483
01/13/19 08:43 AM
01/13/19 08:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 764
Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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clothearednincompo  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2016
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Finland
Is this actually on the right forum? The tuners know more about tuners. smile

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Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801498
01/13/19 10:04 AM
01/13/19 10:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Southwestern Ontario
I can't comment on a guitar tuner but I do about about ETDs for pianos.

A Electronic Tuning Device for a piano uses a Discrete Fast Fourier Transform to analyze the acoustic waveform and find the frequency of interest. This is used to establish the inharmonicity of the strings (guitar strings are also inharmonic) which is used to determine the stretch of the piano. If your Tuner shows you a waveform on a screen, that is a DFFT frequency domain.

For actual tuning of a piano, the Tuner uses phase matching, which is highly accurate for any single frequency. When tuning, if your tuner has a strobe display, or blinking lights or just a green light when the correct pitch is attained, that is phase matching.

There is no point in playing two strings and having any expectation from an ETD of doing anything correctly. A single string produces many partials (sort of harmonics) and the ETD has to know which partial to listen to. Playing two strings sets up a mass of partials, some overlapping, that cause the ETD to choose the wrong note for tuning.

Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: prout] #2801499
01/13/19 10:09 AM
01/13/19 10:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,210
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
Tyrone Slothrop  Offline


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,210
Originally Posted by prout
There is no point in playing two strings and having any expectation from an ETD of doing anything correctly. A single string produces many partials (sort of harmonics) and the ETD has to know which partial to listen to. Playing two strings sets up a mass of partials, some overlapping, that cause the ETD to choose the wrong note for tuning.

prout, what does an ETD do about sympathetic resonance? Or does it pick the fundamental frequency just by amplitude?


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Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801508
01/13/19 10:46 AM
01/13/19 10:46 AM
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Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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prout  Offline
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Southwestern Ontario
Most ETDs allow the user to choose which partial to use as the pitch reference, and it listens for that particular partial. This ranges from the 8th partial in the bass (there is almost no fundamental below C1) to the first partial (fundamental) in the high treble. Sympathetic resonances from other strings in the piano can cause confusion.

My M&H BB has tuned aliquots in the upper several octaves which vibrate sympathetically. They are, however, not exactly in tune, and can beat with the speaking portion of the string and confuse the ETD. I either mute out the aliquots or, more often, tune aurally. Aural tuning provides a much more accurate way of bringing the nine vibrating portions of a trichord into a cohesive and musical sound.

ETDs are great for quickly setting a temperament.

Last edited by prout; 01/13/19 10:47 AM.
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Andrew_G] #2801512
01/13/19 11:06 AM
01/13/19 11:06 AM
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anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew_G
there is a well known effect wherein two co-sounding piano strings, tuned almost equally but not equally, produce a pulsation when played.

This is how you manually tune the dual and triple strung notes' strings to each other... you eliminate the beating (pulsating) between two. It's also how guitarists tune up using harmonics on different strings to generate the same tone, then adjusting the tuning peg to eliminate the beating.


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