Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
134 registered members (bambooninja, 90125, Alex Hutor, augustm, Alexwm, BarryR, Bill McKaig,RPT, 36 invisible), 1,582 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . #2801372
01/12/19 07:07 PM
01/12/19 07:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 38
UK
J
Jt2nd Offline OP
Full Member
Jt2nd  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 38
UK
I have been using a Korg Orchestral tuner and when it approaches close to the correct pitch with 2 notes it seems to get confused and read the opposite direction . My ears do the same as the tuner. If two pitches are plucked separately you notice the mistake my ears and the tuner make .
It reads flat when it should read sharp and vice versa . That`s what my ears do as well .

(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801470
01/13/19 07:04 AM
01/13/19 07:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 683
Finland
C
clothearednincompo Online content
500 Post Club Member
clothearednincompo  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 683
Finland
Wot? smile

Are you playing two different pitches at the same time? Tuners can only listen to one at a time.

And they don't know what string you are plucking, so if e.g. a string on a guitar is waaaay out of tune the (chromatic) tuner probably just assumes the closest note to be the expected one. Unless of course the tuner allows specifying the target note, which the Korg might do.

Looks like the Korg also allows various temperaments and overall tuning pitches, so is it set up properly for the instrument that you are using it with? (As in A = 440 Hz and so on.)

I actually don't really know anything about the Korg tuner or much about tuners in general, but at least I was confused about the question, so I thought I'll give the discussion a small nudge forwards...

Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801482
01/13/19 07:40 AM
01/13/19 07:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 86
A
Andrew_G Offline
Full Member
Andrew_G  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 86
I know nothing about Korg Orchestral tuner, but there is a well known effect wherein two co-sounding piano strings, tuned almost equally but not equally, produce a pulsation when played. Listening to this pulsated sound, it is impossible to know which string tone is higher and which is lower. The greater the difference in string tones, the greater the frequency of pulsation. This is well audible when this frequency is 0.5-2 seconds and inaudible in other diapasons. This frequency can be calculated given the main frequencies of the strings' sound.

Last edited by Andrew_G; 01/13/19 07:43 AM.
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801483
01/13/19 07:43 AM
01/13/19 07:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 683
Finland
C
clothearednincompo Online content
500 Post Club Member
clothearednincompo  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 683
Finland
Is this actually on the right forum? The tuners know more about tuners. smile

(ad) SWEETWATER
Sweetwater - Lowest Prices on Gear
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Jt2nd] #2801498
01/13/19 09:04 AM
01/13/19 09:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,394
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,394
Southwestern Ontario
I can't comment on a guitar tuner but I do about about ETDs for pianos.

A Electronic Tuning Device for a piano uses a Discrete Fast Fourier Transform to analyze the acoustic waveform and find the frequency of interest. This is used to establish the inharmonicity of the strings (guitar strings are also inharmonic) which is used to determine the stretch of the piano. If your Tuner shows you a waveform on a screen, that is a DFFT frequency domain.

For actual tuning of a piano, the Tuner uses phase matching, which is highly accurate for any single frequency. When tuning, if your tuner has a strobe display, or blinking lights or just a green light when the correct pitch is attained, that is phase matching.

There is no point in playing two strings and having any expectation from an ETD of doing anything correctly. A single string produces many partials (sort of harmonics) and the ETD has to know which partial to listen to. Playing two strings sets up a mass of partials, some overlapping, that cause the ETD to choose the wrong note for tuning.

Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: prout] #2801499
01/13/19 09:09 AM
01/13/19 09:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,780
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,780
Originally Posted by prout
There is no point in playing two strings and having any expectation from an ETD of doing anything correctly. A single string produces many partials (sort of harmonics) and the ETD has to know which partial to listen to. Playing two strings sets up a mass of partials, some overlapping, that cause the ETD to choose the wrong note for tuning.

prout, what does an ETD do about sympathetic resonance? Or does it pick the fundamental frequency just by amplitude?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801508
01/13/19 09:46 AM
01/13/19 09:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,394
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,394
Southwestern Ontario
Most ETDs allow the user to choose which partial to use as the pitch reference, and it listens for that particular partial. This ranges from the 8th partial in the bass (there is almost no fundamental below C1) to the first partial (fundamental) in the high treble. Sympathetic resonances from other strings in the piano can cause confusion.

My M&H BB has tuned aliquots in the upper several octaves which vibrate sympathetically. They are, however, not exactly in tune, and can beat with the speaking portion of the string and confuse the ETD. I either mute out the aliquots or, more often, tune aurally. Aural tuning provides a much more accurate way of bringing the nine vibrating portions of a trichord into a cohesive and musical sound.

ETDs are great for quickly setting a temperament.

Last edited by prout; 01/13/19 09:47 AM.
Re: Do electronic tuners get confused by 2 close pitches . [Re: Andrew_G] #2801512
01/13/19 10:06 AM
01/13/19 10:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,789
A
anotherscott Offline
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
there is a well known effect wherein two co-sounding piano strings, tuned almost equally but not equally, produce a pulsation when played.

This is how you manually tune the dual and triple strung notes' strings to each other... you eliminate the beating (pulsating) between two. It's also how guitarists tune up using harmonics on different strings to generate the same tone, then adjusting the tuning peg to eliminate the beating.


Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
ad
Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Lessons Online

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Concerns about buying the MP11SE due to possible MIDI issues
by Scriavel Bachmanin. 01/17/19 05:14 PM
Debussy plays Clair de Lune
by prout. 01/17/19 05:11 PM
Yamaha P-255 to P-515?
by MegaPiano. 01/17/19 03:56 PM
Roland Keyboard with Alexa Voice Control?
by JohnSprung. 01/17/19 03:49 PM
Time for first tuning?
by mackguy. 01/17/19 12:47 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics189,627
Posts2,782,878
Members92,143
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2