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Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Nahum] #2801318
01/12/19 03:56 PM
01/12/19 03:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 63
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
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elenmirie  Offline
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by elenmirie
Do you think that Mozart could also be in a group of latecomers? I think not. It is often impossible to point to a specific point in time when a pianist from a performer of music turns into a performer of a musical notation. "The notes must be correct, and the rhythm must be accurate!"

Also interesting to note that Mozart was known for improvisation, and in his day improvisation skills were expected of a musician. Same with Beethoven who came shortly thereafter. All this jazz (using this colloquialism deliberately) about classical musicians only play exactly what's on the page is a recent invention. Like silence in concert halls.

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Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: elenmirie] #2801326
01/12/19 04:15 PM
01/12/19 04:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by elenmirie

Also interesting to note that Mozart was known for improvisation, and in his day improvisation skills were expected of a musician. Same with Beethoven who came shortly thereafter.

Actually, that's not quite true.

Even in Mozart's day, there were performers who didn't compose and couldn't improvise.......like his sister Nannerl.

She wrote to him asking for a cadenza for one of his concertos she was going to perform. And he wrote cadenzas for most of his concertos, partly because some were written for others to perform.

If you think about it, cadenzas are the easiest to improvise, because you're already well-practiced and well-acquainted with the tunes.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801337
01/12/19 04:53 PM
01/12/19 04:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 11
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RosemaryGirl Offline OP
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Wow! Well, I obviously didn't know what I was unleashing when I posted my innocent question before going out to dinner, and now look at what's happened! laugh
I am French after all, so I guess I started "the great debate" early (ahem).

It seems I've got a few answers that confirm my suspicions though: learn to play with classical music first, spice it all up later, and as a beginner, you can already learn "written" jazzy pieces before tackling improvisation much later. I think. If I understood well.

I've already had much reflection thanks to your posts, so I will follow links and read meatier articles after some shut-eye. Thanks to all and happy playing!

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: 90125] #2801356
01/12/19 06:08 PM
01/12/19 06:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,332
Canada
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by 90125
Originally Posted by RosemaryGirl
Any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and happy weekend playing.

Don't waste your time here. Go to the worldwide renowned source of information on classical & jazz education and various fusions of them.

https://online.berklee.edu/about/compare-online-music-education-offerings

Take the online non-credit course there that starts on Monday the 14th. They will still gladly enroll you there quite cheaply. Even if you don't succeed at making the grade there you will have enough interaction with teachers and students to have guidance & inspiration for the rest of your life.

Gary Burton used to teach there. Chick Corea used to give occasional classes there too. With your musical tastes you will love their style. In case you haven't heard it, here's "Lyric Suite for Sextet" to get you in the proper mood to start:


Burton is good, but he goes way too fast for a beginner or even a student with a classical background jumping in. For example, how can you possibly learn the modes and alternate scales in all keys and be able to play music based on them in random order in one week? That alone would take a year. I interfaced with a student who was semi-professional (from how he sounded) and his strategy was to repeat the course multiple times, going a bit further each time. I learned a lot in that course, but I stopped after week 2.

For someone getting their feet wet I found this one to be excellent.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/develop-your-musicianship

Professor Russel has a way of presenting things so that they are grasped by beginners and yet can be pushed further by more advanced musicians. His assignments are deceptively simple and doable, and yet pack a punch in terms of learning and growth.

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: bennevis] #2801461
01/13/19 06:06 AM
01/13/19 06:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 63
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
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elenmirie  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 63
Cumbria, England
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by elenmirie

Also interesting to note that Mozart was known for improvisation, and in his day improvisation skills were expected of a musician. Same with Beethoven who came shortly thereafter.

Actually, that's not quite true.

Even in Mozart's day, there were performers who didn't compose and couldn't improvise.......like his sister Nannerl.

She wrote to him asking for a cadenza for one of his concertos she was going to perform. And he wrote cadenzas for most of his concertos, partly because some were written for others to perform.

If you think about it, cadenzas are the easiest to improvise, because you're already well-practiced and well-acquainted with the tunes.


I stand corrected! laugh

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801722
01/13/19 10:21 PM
01/13/19 10:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 122
Mars
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90125  Online Sick
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Mars
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Thanks for mentioning Chick Corea, because it reminded me he was the second Jazzer I heard playing classical! And this is the concert - one with two great pianists playing Mozart at a concert smile Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S1iHZEQXrE
This video above just shows how, sometimes genre divisions are just divisions and great pianists transcend these divisions. smile

Thanks again for posting this video. I heard it in the past, but this is first time I actually seen it and I'm very impressed by the creative use of the early video technology. I need to rid myself of the habit of shifting Youtube browser windows with music away from view into the background.

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