Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
133 registered members (Alex Hutor, 90125, augustm, Alexwm, BarryR, Alex C, Amedeus, 34 invisible), 1,599 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? #2801198
01/12/19 10:29 AM
01/12/19 10:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 11
R
RosemaryGirl Offline OP
Junior Member
RosemaryGirl  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 11
I just thought this question that sprung up from the "To quit or not to quit" thread might deserve more visibility. To sum up…

I'm on the lookout for a teacher, being a complete beginner (I've only been learning for 3 months). I love classical AND jazz, and was under the impression that I would have to learn classical for several years to lay the foundations of correct piano technique, and then learn jazz and improvisation. This belief stems partly from my previous teacher's comment that beginners don't do jazz and that I would have to wait a couple of years to just start.

Now, two things are making me wonder whether that's the best course of action: firstly, Tyrone Slothrop seems to think that jazz piano is so different to classical, that I may be better off learning that from the start. The other thing is that somebody pointed me to a music school where a student's testimonial mentions the fact they are learning both classical and jazz at the same time (they have one teacher for jazz for 30 minutes a week, and the same with a classical teacher — I don't know whether they would have started their learning this way).

Trouble is, I really do love both classical and jazz, but if someone pointed a gun to my head and said: "in 20 years, you can only sound good in one of them", I'd choose jazz. Other niggling issue: I've read on this forum that to get good at jazz, you have to play in bands etc., and that's not viable for me as I move around a lot.

So, can you truly learn jazz from the off without previous piano experience, or as my ex-teacher says, is it something you should pick up two years down the line?
Is it convenient or doable to learn classical after jazz (in case I get bored of playing jazz only down the line)?
And the whole idea of having one teacher for each, is that crazy? Is it particularly crazy for a beginner?

When I tried the clarinet for a few months, my teacher certainly gave me classical AND jazz straight away, to fit my tastes. She also made me improvise on lesson 2, which I thought was brilliant as you can't be inhibited when you clearly know nothing — you're going to sound bad anyway. But, I don't know whether that would be a good idea with the piano.

Any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and happy weekend playing.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801201
01/12/19 10:34 AM
01/12/19 10:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Well, although I said I think (based on things I've read online) that classical piano and jazz piano are different things, that said, it is my belief (also based on things I seen online) that it is easier to learn classical piano and play jazz score transcriptions (not talking about jazz improvisation) then vice versa. I've seen a number of youtube videos of classical pianists playing jazz and contemporary pieces, and only one video of a serious jazzer playing a classical piece (and that btw, was in a recording from a seminar that famous musician was giving - I guess it could be a jazz masterclass). However, this said, people who really know this like teachers would have much better info. I'm just making this observation based on close to a year of watching piano videos and reading about the same smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801208
01/12/19 10:58 AM
01/12/19 10:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,132
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,132
Pennsylvania
My opinion ….

Taking traditional piano lessons in the early (1-3) years usually involved various method books where you learn to READ printed notation for the music you are playing. That is a good thing because you learn to READ music as you play. That will serve you well regardless of the style of music you eventually migrate to.

Some will say …. you do not have to be able to read music to play jazz music. Of course, you don't …. but it can come in handy when trying to learn things.

Also …. those first few years of piano playing often involved tunes which help you learn specific skills that you need to possess in order to advance as a pianist.

So …. the material (or style) is not as important as the skills you are learning.

Now … if you want to bypass all of that and/or try to find a way to gain those skills with a jazz oriented direction. That will work too, if done correctly.

Bottom line …. you need a base of skills in order to be successful down the road with any style of playing so make sure you do not gloss over that part of your journey.

Do not be in a hurry. It does not work.

Here is a site that you might try (14-day free trial) that might appeal to you.

https://pianowithjonny.com/

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Casio PX-160, SennHeiser HD 555 Headphones, Apple iPad Mini, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor, Focal CMS 40 Monitors
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801211
01/12/19 11:18 AM
01/12/19 11:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 135
Southeast USA
P
Progman Offline
Full Member
Progman  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 135
Southeast USA
I dare you to post this question in the Teacher's Forum crazy


Progman
Baldwin Console + Kawai ES100
Alfreds bk 1 + Teacher
Long Live ELP
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Progman] #2801217
01/12/19 11:31 AM
01/12/19 11:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,230
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,230
Originally Posted by Progman
I dare you to post this question in the Teacher's Forum crazy

I dare you to post this question in the Non-Classical Forum (where the jazzers reside) wink .

I'm feeling chilled out today, so I won't give my opinion (based on my experience of jazzer friends and well-known classical musicians who are also occasional jazzers - and the very few well-known jazzers who dabble in classical music) here.

Let's just say: "What do you mean by jazz?" - and take it from there......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801226
01/12/19 12:01 PM
01/12/19 12:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,353
Groove On Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Groove On  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,353
It's important to clarify what you mean by 'Classical' and 'Jazz' - they can be used with many different meanings. It's not uncommon for a student to mean one thing and have the teacher understand something completely different.

Some questions to think about:
- do you mean you want to learn specific pieces from those genres?
- or do you mean you like music in the 'Classical' or 'Jazz style (in a broad sense) or did you have specific periods/styles in mind?
- or do you actually mean that you wanted to 'learn to read / Interpret music' in the Classical sense and be able to improvise like they do in Jazz?
- or are you being enthusiastic and covering all your bases because it sounds exciting to try to do it all?

(not expecting an answer to these question, just throwing them out there as food for thought)


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801245
01/12/19 12:56 PM
01/12/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 994
Chicago
J
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member
jjo  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 994
Chicago
A couple of comments from someone who learned classical as a youth, and jazz as an adult:

1. As noted above, when you say jazz, do you mean, play fully written pieces with a jazz feel, or do you mean play from lead sheets where you do your own arrangement and improvise solos? if the former, you can surely do both at the outset, as it's really learning to play piano, but with a repertoire that includes jazz (or ragtime, etc.). If you want the later, I suspect trying to do both, before you have the basics of playing piano, would be difficult.
2. You also asked whether you need to play jazz with others to "get good." It's not a matter of getting good. Playing jazz solo and playing with others are simply two different skills. You can get really good at playing solo jazz piano without playing with others. Also, there are computer programs where you can simulate playing with others. That said, playing jazz with others is a great, great, joy. You might get frustrated in that you can't play like most of the recordings you hear because you can only play solo jazz piano.

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801250
01/12/19 01:06 PM
01/12/19 01:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 127
Mars
90125 Online sick
Full Member
90125  Online Sick
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 127
Mars
Originally Posted by RosemaryGirl
Any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and happy weekend playing.

Don't waste your time here. Go to the worldwide renowned source of information on classical & jazz education and various fusions of them.

https://online.berklee.edu/about/compare-online-music-education-offerings

Take the online non-credit course there that starts on Monday the 14th. They will still gladly enroll you there quite cheaply. Even if you don't succeed at making the grade there you will have enough interaction with teachers and students to have guidance & inspiration for the rest of your life.

Gary Burton used to teach there. Chick Corea used to give occasional classes there too. With your musical tastes you will love their style. In case you haven't heard it, here's "Lyric Suite for Sextet" to get you in the proper mood to start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCswbqJEww0&list=OLAK5uy_mHNwzMx_3L57tSZ8yMS77CZNWcZn_qKBg

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: 90125] #2801252
01/12/19 01:13 PM
01/12/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Originally Posted by 90125
Don't waste your time here. Go to the worldwide renowned source of information on classical & jazz education and various fusions of them.

https://online.berklee.edu/about/compare-online-music-education-offerings

Take the online non-credit course there that starts on Monday the 14th. They will still gladly enroll you there quite cheaply. Even if you don't succeed at making the grade there you will have enough interaction with teachers and students to have guidance & inspiration for the rest of your life.

Gary Burton used to teach there. Chick Corea used to give occasional classes there too. With your musical tastes you will love their style. In case you haven't heard it, here's "Lyric Suite for Sextet" to get you in the proper mood to start:

Thanks for mentioning Chick Corea, because it reminded me he was the second Jazzer I heard playing classical! And this is the concert - one with two great pianists playing Mozart at a concert smile Enjoy.


This video above just shows how, sometimes genre divisions are just divisions and great pianists transcend these divisions. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801285
01/12/19 02:33 PM
01/12/19 02:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
Full Member
elenmirie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
Well, this is an interesting article, although it contains some BS. Because classical music totally doesn't have chords, and classical pianists can't play anything written after 1850 (well I'd better throw away that Einaudi then, not to mention Bartok, Kabalevsky, Tchaikovsky, etc etc).

https://dongayhardt.weebly.com/blog/the-differences-between-classical-and-contemporary-piano

But I think I understand what he's trying to get at. The focus of the instruction is different, classical instruction focuses most on deciphering what is on the page. If the musical structure gets a look in, it is sort of tacked on by an enlightened teacher or an enterprising student with enough knowledge of music theory to do it. Presumably, jazz instruction would focus more on the structure of the music first, because if you're going to be a jazz pianist, you must be able to improvise and for that you have to understand the musical structure.

Or something like that.

I guess my advice would be - interview teachers, and explain what you want. If you find one that says something that makes sense to you, hire that teacher. laugh

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801288
01/12/19 02:36 PM
01/12/19 02:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,782
Israel
N
Nahum Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Nahum  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,782
Israel
This dilemma exists at least more than 70 years - from official start of jazz education in academic framework in the States. Some considerations need to be taken into account:

1. There is the concept of "pianism". It is connected with the history of the development of the instrument itself and the piano technique based on the repertoire, which began to be created specifically from Bach to the present day. This process is mutual: the improvement of the instrument opens up new ways for pianism and new requirements for the instrument. As a result, the piano has become a universal instrument for all existing musical genres, of course within the limits of temperament and exact pitches.

2. A highly developed culture of technology and sound touch makes pianists study both the anatomy of the piano and the anatomy of their own body. The pianist’s development process takes place on the basis of the “pianistic” repertoire, to which jazz in the classical sense simply does not apply - its basis is not piano, but horns instruments: trumpet, clarinet, saxophone, and also drums of various types. The classical piano sings,starting with Italian bel canto : the jazz piano sings the blues or talks American English and creates the groove- swing atmosphere.
To put it simply: in order to play piano, Cuban music, or African, or Arabic, or jazz at a decent level, requires possession of an instrument; and it is created only on the basis of classical repertoire.

So where is the solution ? Each of us had our own way; a month ago I started working with children in the range of 6-12 years; so this dilemma is very relevant to me. My suggestion: start with a study of classical piano - on the one hand; on the other hand, in parallel, start to get acquainted with jazz by ear by singing what do you hear on the records , for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k01HxQRHxLQ
If you learn to accurately sing the piano part from the beginning or the trumpet from 0: 53 - you make a huge leap in the study of jazz, swing, articulation. Repeated work with recordings that can be played by voice creates a gradual accumulation effect, which sooner or later will burst out on the piano.

Tunes and improvisation lines are taught by notes

Chords are taught in theory

Rhythm, swing, groove, touch, articulation - they learn only by ear!






Last edited by Nahum; 01/12/19 02:42 PM.
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: elenmirie] #2801289
01/12/19 02:38 PM
01/12/19 02:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Originally Posted by elenmirie
well I'd better throw away that Einaudi then, not to mention Bartok, Kabalevsky, Tchaikovsky, etc etc

No, keep the Bartok, Kabalevsky, and Tchaikovsky! wink grin

(I hope you Einaudi people know I'm joking - my wife is waiting for an Einaudi offering from me... it'll be a bit longer wink )


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801301
01/12/19 03:11 PM
01/12/19 03:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
Full Member
elenmirie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by elenmirie
well I'd better throw away that Einaudi then, not to mention Bartok, Kabalevsky, Tchaikovsky, etc etc

No, keep the Bartok, Kabalevsky, and Tchaikovsky! wink grin

(I hope you Einaudi people know I'm joking - my wife is waiting for an Einaudi offering from me... it'll be a bit longer wink )


Hehehehe! You know, when I first heard Einaudi I was not a fan. Then something snapped and I thought... I could play some of that. Then I started listening more and sort of got sucked in to Planet Einaudi.

He's very chord-based, you know!

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801304
01/12/19 03:21 PM
01/12/19 03:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
Full Member
elenmirie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: elenmirie] #2801307
01/12/19 03:28 PM
01/12/19 03:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Originally Posted by elenmirie
Hehehehe! You know, when I first heard Einaudi I was not a fan. Then something snapped and I thought... I could play some of that. Then I started listening more and sort of got sucked in to Planet Einaudi.

He's very chord-based, you know!

Well he was a music major at the Milan conservatory. So his compositions have a formal music-theory based foundation to them - unlike for example, a number of other well-known contemporary piano composers (e.g., Yanni, Yann Tiersen, George Winston, etc.) Einaudi's pieces are just too repetitive for me. Reminds me of the dance mixes my wife spent years listening to crazy


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801309
01/12/19 03:39 PM
01/12/19 03:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,779
RosemaryGirl: BTW, I just noticed in the frame on the right of the main forum window, PW has an ad for a Jazz piano learning site. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801311
01/12/19 03:43 PM
01/12/19 03:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
elenmirie Offline
Full Member
elenmirie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 67
Cumbria, England
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Well he was a music major at the Milan conservatory. So his compositions have a formal music-theory based foundation to them - unlike for example, a number of other well-known contemporary piano composers (e.g., Yanni, Yann Tiersen, George Winston, etc.) Einaudi's pieces are just too repetitive for me. Reminds me of the dance mixes my wife spent years listening to crazy


I've got a Yann Tiersen piece, it goes i III v VII (key of Em, so Em G Bm D) all the way through. How is that different?

You can forget the right hand as written and just improv over the left hand pattern, it's fun smile.

But yes, repetitive. I'm learning to like that style, especially as a piano student. It's a passacaglia, an unchanging bass part with a changing melody. Like Dido's lament from Purcell's "Dido and Aeneas".

Or something like that.

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801313
01/12/19 03:44 PM
01/12/19 03:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,132
Pennsylvania
D
dmd Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,132
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
RosemaryGirl: BTW, I just noticed in the frame on the right of the main forum window, PW has an ad for a Jazz piano learning site. smile


I have been a member of that site, periodically. In my view, while it is of very high quality instruction, it is targeting players with a few years under their belt.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Casio PX-160, SennHeiser HD 555 Headphones, Apple iPad Mini, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor, Focal CMS 40 Monitors
Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2801314
01/12/19 03:44 PM
01/12/19 03:44 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,386
Owen Sound, Ontario
G
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
Greener  Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014

G

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,386
Owen Sound, Ontario
Kind of like trying to decide what you want to choose as your career major, for choosing the courses you want to take when entering into kindergarten. Well, you won't go wrong with english (language rather) and math. But, you really don't need to decide your specialty just yet. More urgent is learning how to play piano, but maybe will be of benefit to choose a teacher familiar with teaching classical and non. Agree that jazz can be many things and improv. is not where you want to start. So i prefer to think more in terms of classical and non-classical. With the latter, chords and lead sheets may be introduced sooner, but reading will also be needed and neither school will skip this step entirely. A good all around Teacher is key.

Re: Best to learn classical, then jazz, or the other way around? [Re: elenmirie] #2801316
01/12/19 03:50 PM
01/12/19 03:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,782
Israel
N
Nahum Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Nahum  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,782
Israel
Originally Posted by elenmirie
Do you think that Mozart could also be in a group of latecomers? I think not. It is often impossible to point to a specific point in time when a pianist from a performer of music turns into a performer of a musical notation. "The notes must be correct, and the rhythm must be accurate!"

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  BB Player 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
ad
Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Lessons Online

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha P-255 to P-515?
by MegaPiano. 01/17/19 03:56 PM
Roland Keyboard with Alexa Voice Control?
by JohnSprung. 01/17/19 03:49 PM
Time for first tuning?
by mackguy. 01/17/19 12:47 PM
Chickering Manufactured by Baldwin Mid 1990's
by Leslie C. 01/17/19 12:40 PM
Kawai CA63
by Bibster. 01/17/19 12:19 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics189,626
Posts2,782,856
Members92,133
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2