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touch sensitivity just not cutting it? #2800077
01/09/19 10:36 AM
01/09/19 10:36 AM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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I've tried a couple of digital pianos and keyboards lately, but the touch just feels off to me (compared to an acoustic). I tried a Yamaha P515, which has weighted, touch sensitive keys. It was OK, but I still felt that the level of expressiveness just wasn't there. I also just tried a 61-key Korg arranger, which has a synth action. Of course, this is nothing like a real piano, but I don't mind so much since I'd use it for other sounds.

The thing is, the touch response just feels weird. For example, it has a pretty good guitar sound, but dynamics are tricky. The sample will change tone depending on how hard I hit the key, but to get the loudest, sharpest sound, I really have to press the key hard. Sometimes it'll trigger the sample to switch when I don't want it to. It's the same for piano. Like on a real piano, the notes will get brighter if I play harder, but it's not really a smooth transition. I think maybe it's the sample switching that's bothering me.

Is it just that the keys aren't sensitive enough to small changes in pressure, or there's too few samples, so I hear the transition when timbre changes? I have adjusted the touch sensitivity settings, but it just feels awkward. This seems common with most digitals I've played. Some have had really great feeling keys, but the actual touch response just isn't like a real piano.


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Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800183
01/09/19 03:27 PM
01/09/19 03:27 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Just wanted to share this, in case anyone else is struggling with the issue. I think I may have found my own answer here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/5kia1z/digital_piano_touch_sensitivity/

Specifically, this part:

"For the 3rd issue, the sound of the digital piano is often not super-realistic, due to tricks employed to keep the size of the digital audio small (so less memory is required) and due to the manufacture wanting a sound that is "crisp" and without imperfection, as most consumers probably prefer this. So you may just not like the sound. But also, one way manufacturer's save on memory requirements is to only record each key at 2-3 different levels. The term is "velocity layers" and the # of velocity layers used is usually kept secret by the manufacturer unless they're bragging about their "4 velocity layers". E.g. for a 2-layer digital piano, for a given key (say, middle C) they record it once played fairly quietly (mp or mf) and once played really loud. Then they just adjust the playback volume for sample #1 as you play harder, and when you reach a certain hardness, they switch to sample #2. Or they may do some blending magic. Now, on a real piano, when you hit a note hard, it has a very "biting" sound, and a much different sound when you play quietly, and there are infinite variations inbetween as you hit a key harder and harder. On a digital piano, it can sound unrealistic to hear the exact same sample gradually get louder, and then it can be quite jarring as it switches to a different recorded sample when you reach a certain loudness... and it can be frustrating not being able to produce a sound "in the middle" of those two sampled sounds."


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800296
01/09/19 07:55 PM
01/09/19 07:55 PM
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JoeT Offline
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The info about velocity layers is pretty outdated, as no manufacturer uses fixed velocity layers anymore (I think since at least a decade). There is always smooth transition from pp to ff and depending on memory size they sound more or less realistic. Except for single-layer there is no way to tell the number of sample layers used. As you can't tell if a certain velocity level (e. g. mf) was actually sampled or just modeled / calculated.

Only single layer entry-level instruments usually give it away, because they generate their pianissimo tones from filtered forte samples.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: JoeT] #2800421
01/10/19 08:14 AM
01/10/19 08:14 AM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT
The info about velocity layers is pretty outdated, as no manufacturer uses fixed velocity layers anymore (I think since at least a decade). There is always smooth transition from pp to ff and depending on memory size they sound more or less realistic. Except for single-layer there is no way to tell the number of sample layers used. As you can't tell if a certain velocity level (e. g. mf) was actually sampled or just modeled / calculated.

Only single layer entry-level instruments usually give it away, because they generate their pianissimo tones from filtered forte samples.


Hmmmm. Maybe it it the physical key sensors then, or the software velocity curves. Whatever it is, I find that the level of control just can't compare to a real acoustic. The touch just feels wrong on most keyboards I've played. Some of it could also be the built-in speaker systems not being powerful enough.

With the Korg PA700 I just tried, when I played with the normal force I'd use for mf, the sound was very quiet (too quiet, IMO). To get ff, I had to slam the keys pretty hard. Now this just had synth-action keys, but even on the Yamaha P515, I wasn't that impressed with the feel. I think it was better, but even with the wooden keys and all, it still just felt fake.


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Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800553
01/10/19 01:49 PM
01/10/19 01:49 PM
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Most dps or keybds have touch velocity adjustments. Did you make the appropriate changes on the Korg PA when you played it? It often makes the difference between playable and not enjoyable.


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Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800567
01/10/19 02:22 PM
01/10/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
The info about velocity layers is pretty outdated, as no manufacturer uses fixed velocity layers anymore...you can't tell if a certain velocity level (e. g. mf) was actually sampled or just modeled / calculated.

AFAIK, most manufacturers use fixed velocity layers in most if not all of their boards. Roland uses modeling on most (though not all) of their current boards... Yamaha uses it on just a handful of models (they call it SCM)... I don't think Nord, Kurzweil, Kawai, Korg, or Casio use it at all. (Some of them use modeling for other sounds, but not piano.)

Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
With the Korg PA700 I just tried, when I played with the normal force I'd use for mf, the sound was very quiet (too quiet, IMO). To get ff, I had to slam the keys pretty hard. Now this just had synth-action keys, but even on the Yamaha P515, I wasn't that impressed with the feel. I think it was better, but even with the wooden keys and all, it still just felt fake.

This is a common complaint on synth action boards, but not really on hammer action boards. I'm surprised you didn't notice more of a difference in the controllability/responsiveness of the dynamics on the Yamaha vs. the Korg.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800573
01/10/19 02:36 PM
01/10/19 02:36 PM
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too late to edit, but also, some of those manufacturers may use modeling for some piano attributes like resonance, but are still just playing back specified samples at specified velocities for the piano tone itself.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: anotherscott] #2800585
01/10/19 03:09 PM
01/10/19 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by JoeT
The info about velocity layers is pretty outdated, as no manufacturer uses fixed velocity layers anymore...you can't tell if a certain velocity level (e. g. mf) was actually sampled or just modeled / calculated.

AFAIK, most manufacturers use fixed velocity layers in most if not all of their boards. Roland uses modeling on most (though not all) of their current boards... Yamaha uses it on just a handful of models (they call it SCM)... I don't think Nord, Kurzweil, Kawai, Korg, or Casio use it at all. (Some of them use modeling for other sounds, but not piano.)

If I understood Joe correctly, I don't think he meant modelling in the sense of how Pianoteq is modelled, but he meant blending/extrapolating between layers in real time, to create smoother transitions between the layers. This is indeed being done. I know Kawai does, and I assume the other sampled pianos do too, these days.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800592
01/10/19 03:38 PM
01/10/19 03:38 PM
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I have read that the Korg Pa700 only has 3 velocity layers on its main piano. It is a cut-down version of the Pa4x piano which has more layers.
If the Pa700 is yours then the good news is that you can load a 6 velocity piano from here
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=113029
This 6 layer piano has enough layers and blending to make the timbre change smooth over the entire velocity range.
(Full disclosure - I am the compiler of this piano and it was sourced from the Creative Commons Salamander Grand and tailored for the Korg Pa series).

Last edited by Jonky Ponky; 01/10/19 03:40 PM.
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: JoBert] #2800599
01/10/19 03:53 PM
01/10/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
blending/extrapolating between layers in real time, to create smoother transitions between the layers. This is indeed being done. I know Kawai does, and I assume the other sampled pianos do too, these days.

Yes, the idea of crossfading is to blend two velocity-adjacent samples to smooth the transition. I'm actually not sure how common it is. And I really don't know what Kawai does in terms of velocity transitions, do you have any info on that?

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: anotherscott] #2800610
01/10/19 04:16 PM
01/10/19 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by JoBert
blending/extrapolating between layers in real time, to create smoother transitions between the layers. This is indeed being done. I know Kawai does, and I assume the other sampled pianos do too, these days.

Yes, the idea of crossfading is to blend two velocity-adjacent samples to smooth the transition. I'm actually not sure how common it is. And I really don't know what Kawai does in terms of velocity transitions, do you have any info on that?

Well, I don't work for Kawai smile, so I have no technical details. It's just what I gathered from their marketing material about the HIXL engine.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800635
01/10/19 05:13 PM
01/10/19 05:13 PM
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Agreeing with Radio.Octave. I've not yet found any digital piano that has sensitivity comparable to an acoustic piano. I was playing around in a store the other day, and playing a short classical music piece on a digital Yamaha Clavinova (forgot which model, but its price tag is about $7K or $8K.) Still, its touch sensitivity is not comparable to my quite old Baldwin Hamilton acoustic piano. You can play popular music pieces or jazz music on a digital piano, but when it comes to classical music, I still think an acoustic piano - even a much older one - still yields a better sensitivity when your fingers slide over the keys.

By the way, if I ever spend $7K or $8K for a piano, I'd not buy a digital piano, no matter what brand. That sum could fetch a quite decent acoustic upright or even a baby grand.


"Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue."
-- Plato
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2800728
01/11/19 12:34 AM
01/11/19 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
The thing is, the touch response just feels weird.

Sampled pianos always give me ear fatigue - the velocity changes are too abrupt and/or the note decay is off. Have you tried a modeled or semi-modeled digital to see if it responds better? There is a trade-off between the two: sampled pianos generally have a more 'authentic' timbre, while modeled pianos have a more 'authentic' response; you have to see if you can live with either one.

Personally, I found the original semi-modeled Supernatural Roland sounds (FP-30) and then Pianoteq (with a decent sound system) were "good enough" for me. Interesting thing about Pianoteq, you can make it more sensitive than an actual acoustic piano.


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Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: JoBert] #2800747
01/11/19 04:29 AM
01/11/19 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert

Well, I don't work for Kawai smile, so I have no technical details. It's just what I gathered from their marketing material about the HIXL engine.

I read in the DPBSD about the ES100 : “This is most likely a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set.” I suppose the HIXL which should be more advanced to be blended too.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/11/19 04:30 AM.

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Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Groove On] #2800802
01/11/19 10:07 AM
01/11/19 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
[Have you tried a modeled or semi-modeled digital to see if it responds better? There is a trade-off between the two: sampled pianos generally have a more 'authentic' timbre, while modeled pianos have a more 'authentic' response; you have to see if you can live with either one.

That's a good point, that many find that the modeled pianos play more naturally in terms of dynamics. For a self-contained DP, the Roland RD2000 includes both the purely modeled V-Piano engine, and the hybrid sampled/modeled SuperNatural piano engine, and there are numerous lower priced models that have just the latter. If he wants a model with built in speakers, you can go from the entry FP30 model to the higher end FP60 or FP90 if you prefer a different action. You can also get a modeled hardware piano in the Physis models from Visount. For software, as you mentioned, there is Pianoteq, But you're still not going to get the best expressivity playing it from an unweighted action like that Korg arranger, you definitely want to pair it with something better.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Frédéric L] #2800866
01/11/19 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by JoBert

Well, I don't work for Kawai smile, so I have no technical details. It's just what I gathered from their marketing material about the HIXL engine.

I read in the DPBSD about the ES100 : “This is most likely a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set.” I suppose the HIXL which should be more advanced to be blended too.

The ES100 most likely is single layer, with 88 keys sampled. The filter applied to the one (forte) sample per key is pretty obvious and you can remove it via Virtual Technician, which gives it away.

The DP has three piano programs based on that 88 sample set (shifted by an half-tone up and down) and five based on a different even older sample set, where only every fourth key was sampled.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2801075
01/11/19 11:16 PM
01/11/19 11:16 PM
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I had a Casio PX860 which I thought had great feel with regard to the sound.

Since upgrading to the Yamaha P515, I love the weight of the keys but despise the default settings. There is something very weird with the midi velocity config, which maxes out around 60/127 making everything sound super weak and unresponsive. Finally I’ve found 2 tricks to solve this for onboard sounds and for controlling Logic Pro.

The trick I’ve found to fix the onboard sounds is to change Voice > Voice Edit > Touch Sensitivity from 64 to 100. This get me an awesome rich sound with each instrument.

The trick for Logic Pro is to use the velocity processing plugin, and shift the top of the velocity curve down to about 64. This makes the max midi value sent by the keyboard match the max value Logic is expecting. After this it’s been blissful.

One additional observation about the midi implementation has to do with Note On vs Note Off values. It looks like Yamaha reserves the 65-127 range for Note Off values. No clue why they would do this, but seems to explain the flaccid default performance.

Hope this helps someone else with the same issues!

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: kensdavid] #2801169
01/12/19 09:15 AM
01/12/19 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kensdavid


One additional observation about the midi implementation has to do with Note On vs Note Off values. It looks like Yamaha reserves the 65-127 range for Note Off values. No clue why they would do this, but seems to explain the flaccid default performance.!


How odd. Can you describe how this works? Min note-on is 1, Max note-on is 64, min note-off is 65, max note-off is 127?

The note off range probably doesn't matter a huge amount, but halving the note-on range cuts the dynamics in half for almost any application.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Gombessa] #2801210
01/12/19 11:06 AM
01/12/19 11:06 AM
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I'm pretty sure the Note Off messages are meant to relay info about release velocity to enable staccato vs legato, but you're right in that it severely limits Dynamics.

Using the velocity processor plugin within Logic really does help and once configured to my preferences it works great for me.

That said, I wish Yamaha would make this configurable, or fix it to conform to typical DAW standards.

Re: touch sensitivity just not cutting it? [Re: Radio.Octave] #2801248
01/12/19 01:02 PM
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I simply haven't heard of a DP, including Yamahas, that limit max note-on to midi value of 64. Is it possible you have smacked some kind of weird midi controller or touch response seeing? Perhaps a factory reset might be in order to just confirm this is how it should respond?

I think it's common for DPs to max out between MIDI 100-120, but a hard stop at 64 is like not being able to play above m/mf.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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