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DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. #2800108
01/09/19 12:02 PM
01/09/19 12:02 PM
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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I think that very often people find DPs touch very different from acoustic just because of wrong expectations. They play 30-40-50 years old pianos and then try DP and say "Oh, it's so terribly far away from acoustic". Same was with me when I tried acoustic for the first time after DP (I had Kawai CA17 with RM3 action) - it was 1980 built soviet baby-grand. Of course the touch was extremely different. After that I came to local music colledge and tried a couple of grands there (Irmler pianos, as I remember). They were relatively new, but played 24/7 by numerous students - so, the action was pretty battered and had some "wobbling" impression, and was far away from my DP too, It was an unpleasant surprise for me. But some time after I had a chance to practice on brand-new Yamaha upright. And - what a shock - I found it's touch much closer to DP than to all that acoustics I tried before. And even my teacher agreed.
After that I found out that some of the guys who told me that DP touch is far away from acoustics played no acoustic pianos except grand-mothers battered uprights they have at home.

P.S.:
By the way I have to say that beginners feel difference between keyboards stronger, IMHO. For a advanced player it takes a couple of minutes to get used to a new keyboard, while for a beginner it sometimes takes an entire practice session.
Same is with cars. Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another. While in the beginning it was like "O my God, it feels so different, How can I drive this one?!" smile


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800118
01/09/19 12:28 PM
01/09/19 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
And even my teacher agreed.

Wasn't your teacher the one who said that even a good hybrid like the NV10, was only "good for a digital?" smile

Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another.

Doesn't sound like you've tried to drive any old Lada Niva's from the 90's. wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800122
01/09/19 12:35 PM
01/09/19 12:35 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Digital pianos can in many cases be equally as dynamic and expressive as acoustic pianos when in proper hands. That doesn't mean their actions are the same, even if they feel the same.

Also, often the feel of a keyboard when switched off isn't very important. As I recently reported in another thread, the keyboard of P-515 and CLP-645 felt very similar to NU1 when switched off, particularly when comparing the initial static resistance, although their dynamic inertial weighting feels already different even when switched off, and then for some reason when switched on they are so different! There are many unconscious factors that contribute to how we feel about a piano and ultimately it's when playing an entire piece that matters. Keyboard feel alone might be very misleading without being related to an entire performance.

I know it all sounds vague, so let me give you a very concrete example. A particular difference I've found between real piano actions and digital ones (including the closest ones such as the Kawai wooden actions) is the feel of the detachable hammer. Maybe one won't perceive that as something important initially but unconsciously the feel of that flowing hammer gives you additional feedback regarding the state of the entire mechanics underneath your fingers so you can better transfer the proper quantity of energy into keys. In most (if not all) digital piano actions, you press a key which is hard-linked to the hammer weight and giving it inertia the whole key bottoms out to produce tone (with or without your finger still resting on it). Hence when you need to repeat that same key, you might have to feel the key again. Whereas on an acoustic action the hammer will be flying and the key will suddenly become light under your finger but won't bottom out and you will then feel when the hammer returns... It's all too confusing to explain these phenomena with words but I've spent quite a considerable time analyzing why I feel more comfortable controlling even worn out acoustic pianos rather than a digital.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800125
01/09/19 12:45 PM
01/09/19 12:45 PM
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another.

Doesn't sound like you've tried to drive any old Lada Niva's from the 90's. wink



My first car was VAZ 2104 - ask your wife what a monster is it :)) I decided to sell it when I boght my Peugeot. I was on sale for about a month when the buyer appeared. He asked me to drive a little with him - I got used so much to Peugeot for this month that the first thought was "Gosh, how could I drive it?!"

Well, piano school in Russian has rather tough approach, as you now. And they usually say "The worse are the instrument you play as a kid, the easier it will be for you to play in the future on any instrument you'll have to play"
I discussed the necessity of playing without pedal with my teacher once. And she told me seriously:"What are you gonna do if you'll have to play an instrument with pedals broken, ha?" And she thought it's a good argument, untila I said:"I just won't play. I do not HAVE to play - I am an amateur, as you remember, I hope" smile

Last edited by PianoStartsAt33; 01/09/19 12:49 PM.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800239
01/09/19 05:28 PM
01/09/19 05:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
My first car was VAZ 2104 - ask your wife what a monster is it :))

Continuing off topic smile , but I did just mention to my wife and her response: "Well it's a Zhiguli," as if this then comprehensively explains everything smile

Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I discussed the necessity of playing without pedal with my teacher once. And she told me seriously:"What are you gonna do if you'll have to play an instrument with pedals broken, ha?" And she thought it's a good argument, untila I said:"I just won't play. I do not HAVE to play - I am an amateur, as you remember, I hope" smile

This reminds me of a story told to me by my Russian ex-wife (ok, know what you are thinking so stop thinking it wink LOL). When she was in school, her most hated subject was physics. She and her friend actually had a ceremonial burning of their physics books when she graduated and went to the university, to never take physics again. She especially hated her teacher who gave her low marks to ensure she could never get a Red Diploma. Once, her teacher asked her after a class on electromagnetism, "Well if you don't learn any of this, what will you do if you have an electrical problem at home?" My ex-wife's answer: "No I don't need to know any of this. Well, unlike you, I would have my future husband take care of such a problem!"


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800241
01/09/19 05:41 PM
01/09/19 05:41 PM
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Excellent answer. (Can I get her phone number?)

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800244
01/09/19 05:45 PM
01/09/19 05:45 PM
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Murmansk, Russia
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

This reminds me of a story told to me by my Russian ex-wife


Hmm... I wonder is it only you and me on this forum who have russian ex-wives smile ?


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800245
01/09/19 05:45 PM
01/09/19 05:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Tyrone, so your current wife knows what a Zhiguli (Жигули) is and your ex-wife is Russian. Are you Russian yourself or you just have a fixation on Russian women? laugh


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800250
01/09/19 05:57 PM
01/09/19 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, so your current wife knows what a Zhiguli (Жигули) is and your ex-wife is Russian. Are you Russian yourself or you just have a fixation on Russian women? laugh

Both are Russian, ... and didn't I already preempt your exact question with my: "(ok, know what you are thinking so stop thinking it wink LOL)"

Haha.... But by way of partial excuse, I could venture forth the comment that I did live and work in Moscow for a few years, while cleverly simultaneously avoiding your actual direct question. wink LOL

BTW, I'm Chinese, born and bred in China and I even, perhaps unusual for this PW forum, have citizenship there. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800252
01/09/19 06:00 PM
01/09/19 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
A particular difference I've found between real piano actions and digital ones (including the closest ones such as the Kawai wooden actions) is the feel of the detachable hammer. Maybe one won't perceive that as something important initially but unconsciously the feel of that flowing hammer gives you additional feedback regarding the state of the entire mechanics underneath your fingers so you can better transfer the proper quantity of energy into keys. In most (if not all) digital piano actions, you press a key which is hard-linked to the hammer weight and giving it inertia the whole key bottoms out to produce tone (with or without your finger still resting on it). Hence when you need to repeat that same key, you might have to feel the key again. Whereas on an acoustic action the hammer will be flying and the key will suddenly become light under your finger but won't bottom out and you will then feel when the hammer returns... It's all too confusing to explain these phenomena with words but I've spent quite a considerable time analyzing why I feel more comfortable controlling even worn out acoustic pianos rather than a digital.



THIS! The hammers! I am searching for a DP atm for around €2000 and was thinking about spending more. And by luck I had the chance to play an old upright acoustic piano some days ago. This was when I decided to not spend much more for a DP. Its just so much of a difference to me - the feeling of the hammers is just so nice.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800275
01/09/19 06:58 PM
01/09/19 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Also, often the feel of a keyboard when switched off isn't very important. As I recently reported in another thread, the keyboard of P-515 and CLP-645 felt very similar to NU1 when switched off, particularly when comparing the initial static resistance, although their dynamic inertial weighting feels already different even when switched off, and then for some reason when switched on they are so different! There are many unconscious factors that contribute to how we feel about a piano and ultimately it's when playing an entire piece that matters. Keyboard feel alone might be very misleading without being related to an entire performance.


That is strange about the feel changing when the digital is switched on. I thought they all used optical sensors, which shouldn't exhibit a difference.

Perhaps compare the P515 in two different conditions: 1. Unplugged from the mains, no electric power at all. 2. Plugged in, switched on, but with an adapter plugged into the headphone jack so there is no sound. If those feel different, could it be that they're doing something with electromagnetism to affect how the keys move and feel? If they feel the same, then it must be the absence or presence of audible feedback that makes the difference. If that's the case, then try different settings on the volume control to see if that changes your perception of the feel....


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800277
01/09/19 07:01 PM
01/09/19 07:01 PM
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I didn’t mean the mechanical feel changes. It’s the entire perception of how the piano feels in a broader sense.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800280
01/09/19 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I didn’t mean the mechanical feel changes. It’s the entire perception of how the piano feels in a broader sense.


Ah, good -- in that case, do try different volume settings and see how that alters the overall perception. Low volume, you have to play harder, high volume, you play lighter.


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800315
01/09/19 09:01 PM
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Perhaps your teacher didn't have a good answer for the need to practice without a pedal, but this seems more convincing:

The Importance of Playing Piano without the Pedal


Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800359
01/10/19 01:52 AM
01/10/19 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
That is strange about the feel changing when the digital is switched on. I thought they all used optical sensors, which shouldn't exhibit a difference.

Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors. Of the current crop, I think only the AvantGrands and the Novus do (and maybe some other outlier I'm not aware of). And silent systems for acoustics.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JoBert] #2800443
01/10/19 09:19 AM
01/10/19 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors.


OK, what do they use? Hall effect? Capacitance?


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800447
01/10/19 09:34 AM
01/10/19 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by JoBert
Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors.


OK, what do they use? Hall effect? Capacitance?

They use simple contact switches that are pressed in succession and thus a time duration is measured.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: navindra] #2800471
01/10/19 10:29 AM
01/10/19 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Perhaps your teacher didn't have a good answer for the need to practice without a pedal, but this seems more convincing:

The Importance of Playing Piano without the Pedal



Well, some serious pianist and teachers think opposite. I know assistant professor in a branch of St. Petersburg conservatory, and she told me once:"I always say that practicing piano without pedal is like practicing swiming in a pool without water".


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800476
01/10/19 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....


Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800477
01/10/19 10:53 AM
01/10/19 10:53 AM
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Some (most?) interpreters play Bach without using the sustain pedal on the piano and that seems the proper way indeed, taking in mind Bach predominantly composed his keyboard pieces on harpsichord, clavichord and organ, none of which has a sustain pedal. I see a lot of amateur pianists either blurring Bach with the sustain pedal into a huge mess or playing without a sustain pedal but at the same time not phrasing properly through good legato technique. So, playing without a pedal isn't without its importance.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800480
01/10/19 10:55 AM
01/10/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
[quote=navindra]Well, some serious pianist and teachers think opposite. I know assistant professor in a branch of St. Petersburg conservatory, and she told me once:"I always say that practicing piano without pedal is like practicing swiming in a pool without water".


That's a nice way of seeing things and it sounds like a licence to do what you want. But on the other hand, there is the 'sustain hides a multitude of sins' school of thought which, alas, sounds true to me.

The assistant professor at the conservatory was right for more accomplished players at a higher level, I believe, but for lowlier beings, I think practising without pedal can teach you a lot about consistency and, thus, legato.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800481
01/10/19 10:55 AM
01/10/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....

Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!


Well, not that simple either laugh They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. I guess they use some modern electric contact materials.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800487
01/10/19 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. .


That could be capacitance -- common in computer keyboards.


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800488
01/10/19 11:11 AM
01/10/19 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. I guess they use some modern electric contact materials.

Carbon is popular.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800496
01/10/19 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....


Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!

Simple rubberdome contacts you also find in cheap computer keyboards. No mechanical switches (like in better computer keyboards) and no optical sensors except in the pedal.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800506
01/10/19 11:33 AM
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I recently sold my DP - a Roland F140R and got (rented) an acoustic with a silent system - a Kawai K300 ATX2 - best of both worlds. I may try renting a small grand in a years time to see if the added price and size is worth it to me.

The on board sound of the ATX 2 isn’t great but usable when I absolutely have to be silent.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800508
01/10/19 11:38 AM
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Under the each domes sit a black (carbon?) contact. When preseed each one strikes the underlying contact area on a PC board.
It's the same deal as that found on a TV remote control.
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. .
That could be capacitance -- common in computer keyboards.


Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: toddy] #2800713
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Originally Posted by toddy
But on the other hand, there is the 'sustain hides a multitude of sins' school of thought which, alas, sounds true to me.


Yeah I actually practise without the pedal when I'm trying to learn the notes of a piece accurately.

Two thoughts on this I can give :

1 : I have heard and read from a multitude of respectable sources that a bit of playing without the pedal does one good, and it suits me I think.

2 : It reminds me of guys who practise rock and roll guitar with the fuzz pedal on all the time. Turn it off and it's really sloppy.

In response to the original point, there's always this talk of "Digitals vs acoustics" - surely it's more "Pianos vs pianos" - you could almost say that the similarity between a good quality digital and a grand is more than the similarity between a grand and an upright. We have three different types here.

My VPC1 feels pretty similar to a couple of Grands I've tried in my time, but not very similar at all to my upright. So you could say that the VPC1 is more like the grands than the upright is.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800739
01/11/19 02:44 AM
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The main difference between DP's and decent acoustics lies not so much in the touch itself, but rather how the touch generates sound. I've yet to encounter a DP which was as expressive and "sensitive" as a well-regulated good grand or high-end upright. The sound system of the DP is the main culprit, and the limitations of the samples also plays a part. Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.

That said, DP's can obviously still sound very good. But if anybody tries out a 130 cm Steingraeber SFM upright - the best upright in the world IMHO - and still thinks the best DP are even close, then they need to spend more time with the Steingraeber.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: oivavoi] #2800774
01/11/19 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.



In terms of sound alone, I think Pianoteq is the least realistic of anything currently available.

Last edited by johnstaf; 01/11/19 08:07 AM.
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800775
01/11/19 08:16 AM
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Me too, john. It just reeks with fakeness.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800789
01/11/19 09:21 AM
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Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800791
01/11/19 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO

OK, if we are all be counted in and out, then count me out! Pianoteq is the only reason I am still playing piano (only slight exaggeration) as the native sounds of my FP30 put me off so much that if I hadn't come across Pianoteq when I was searching for alternatives, my entire piano learning experiment might have come to an untimely early end after only two weeks!

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800818
01/11/19 10:45 AM
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Concerning pianoteq: It's not so much about the sound as about how it responds to touch/input. Much much better than sample based DP's. I didn't like the sound up to 4, but I perceive 5 and 6 good. As good sound-wise as the best sampled VST's? Probably not. But much more realistic when it comes to how the touch generates music.

But reactions to piano's are subjective, to a certain degree. I was at a piano shop today amd played a renovated old ibach grand from the 20s. Perceived it as an amazing instrument, much more inviting and expressive than the Yamaha grand it stood next to. Then came another customer, and his reaction was the exact opposite.

With pianoteq vs samples, it can be the same thing. I'm mainly a jazz/improv player with a rather sensitive touch. For me, subtle responsiveness is the most important parameter of a piano. I therefore prefer small grands to large uprights, even though large uprights sound better. Same with pianoteq vs samples.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: oivavoi] #2800820
01/11/19 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
Concerning pianoteq: It's not so much about the sound as about how it responds to touch/input.


I agree with this.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: johnstaf] #2800821
01/11/19 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by oivavoi
Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.



In terms of sound alone, I think Pianoteq is the least realistic of anything currently available.


Pianoteq pianos are at least all different. Try the Bechstein. It sounds like an old 'un. past it's best . . .AND you can detune it still further! What's not to like?


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800973
01/11/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink

3-2... wink
Similar experience, from a P115, to a YDP163, then an FP30 & laslty an AP470 none made me enjoy listening to myself play..PTQ on the other hand & the control it permits me is what makes me go back every day to practice and play.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800976
01/11/19 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO

OK, if we are all be counted in and out, then count me out! Pianoteq is the only reason I am still playing piano (only slight exaggeration) as the native sounds of my FP30 put me off so much that if I hadn't come across Pianoteq when I was searching for alternatives, my entire piano learning experiment might have come to an untimely early end after only two weeks!

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink


3-3

same here fp-30+PTQ.... i could not play otherwise... just something aboutthe reponse as somebody said...

Last edited by fofig; 01/11/19 05:48 PM.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2801027
01/11/19 07:52 PM
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For me it's ...
piano + The Grandeur
or
piano + Kawai EX Pro
or
piano + Vintage D

I gave up on the piano by itself years ago. Without a VST it doesn't sound like a piano.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: MacMacMac] #2801051
01/11/19 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
For me it's ...
piano + The Grandeur
or
piano + Kawai EX Pro
or
piano + Vintage D

I gave up on the piano by itself years ago. Without a VST it doesn't sound like a piano.


I've always found with my playing that it sounds better without the VST actually. Or onboard sounds. And with the power button switched off as well, for some reason.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Zaphod] #2801052
01/11/19 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
I've always found with my playing that it sounds better without the VST actually. Or onboard sounds. And with the power button switched off as well, for some reason.

We've found the percussionist! smile


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Zaphod] #2801058
01/11/19 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod

I've always found with my playing that it sounds better without the VST actually. Or onboard sounds. And with the power button switched off as well, for some reason.


I don't even touch the keys! Air piano!



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: johnstaf] #2801225
01/12/19 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by oivavoi
Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.



In terms of sound alone, I think Pianoteq is the least realistic of anything currently available.

Pianoteq is very very sensitive to the velocity curve used and the sound reproduction mechanism (headphones, monitor speakers etc.). There is no such thing as 'one Pianoteq' sound and that is why a lot of people simply love it or simply hate it.

Osho


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2801238
01/12/19 12:38 PM
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That's not why. Fake sound is why.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: MacMacMac] #2801242
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's not why. Fake sound is why.

Well I am super glad I like fake sounds then cause PTQ is the bees knees 😉

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: fofig] #2801253
01/12/19 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fofig
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO

OK, if we are all be counted in and out, then count me out! Pianoteq is the only reason I am still playing piano (only slight exaggeration) as the native sounds of my FP30 put me off so much that if I hadn't come across Pianoteq when I was searching for alternatives, my entire piano learning experiment might have come to an untimely early end after only two weeks!

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink


3-3

same here fp-30+PTQ.... i could not play otherwise... just something aboutthe reponse as somebody said...


3-4! b
Victory is in sight! I got round to trying out my FP50 again because of all the criticism over FP30, which can't sound so different.
Got used to it again quite quickly; the best part is the superb resonances which are good stereo. Now, if I could separate those from the FP sound and add them to Pianoteq . . . .but yes. FP50's still good to go.

Anyone buying? grin

Last edited by peterws; 01/12/19 01:15 PM.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: MacMacMac] #2801255
01/12/19 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's not why. Fake sound is why.


I don't know. YMMV.
Here's a teaser for the Pianoteq Steingraeber piano: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8k0HIj8mj_I

Does this sound "fake" to people? Now I certainly don't claim to have perfect ears. But I played a Steingraber grand in a church some weeks ago, and earlier today I spent some time with a wonderful Steingraeber upright. To my ears this Pianoteq version sounds pretty believable. Is it as rich and deep as the grand or the upright? No. That's also because of the highly imperfect transducers I'm using (right now some good headphones), which can't replicate the way a good grand piano emits sound. In addition, each and every acoustic instrument has its own signature, which will always be different from a modelled piano. But for what it is, this sounds pretty good to me, at least.

Last edited by oivavoi; 01/12/19 01:15 PM.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: peterws] #2801258
01/12/19 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
3-4! b
Victory is in sight!

jamiecw makes it 3-5! wink Now come on. More Pianoteq people speak up. We have to drown out the PT naysayers out there smile


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2801260
01/12/19 01:21 PM
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Very fake. Almost every other VST I've tried (dozens of them) sound more real. The feel of Pianoteq is superb. But the sound is truly appalling.

BTW ... online demos are useless. Pianos that sound good online often sound terrible upon installation. My wallet was heavily drained before I discovered that.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: MacMacMac] #2801267
01/12/19 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Very fake. Almost every other VST I've tried (dozens of them) sound more real. The feel of Pianoteq is superb. But the sound is truly appalling.

BTW ... online demos are useless. Pianos that sound good online often sound terrible upon installation. My wallet was heavily drained before I discovered that.

Curious - did PTQ not offer the current trial version?

Unless they didn’t I see no reason to have had any money spent on it..

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: jamiecw] #2801269
01/12/19 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Very fake. Almost every other VST I've tried (dozens of them) sound more real. The feel of Pianoteq is superb. But the sound is truly appalling.

BTW ... online demos are useless. Pianos that sound good online often sound terrible upon installation. My wallet was heavily drained before I discovered that.

Curious - did PTQ not offer the current trial version?

Unless they didn’t I see no reason to have had any money spent on it..

PTQ does offer a trial version. thickfingers mentioned he is using it. It's because of the trial version that I am a loyal PTQ user. And it's because of a lack of a trial version that I haven't tried any sampled VSTs and am not even sure what they sound like apart from the videos (well except for my FP30, which is mostly sampled).


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2801271
01/12/19 01:58 PM
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Same here, I too would have liked to have tried the Ravenscroft and Garitan but not at the risk of getting something I can’t put to test and be out a couple hundred bucks.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2801274
01/12/19 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiecw
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink

3-2... wink
Similar experience, from a P115, to a YDP163, then an FP30 & laslty an AP470 none made me enjoy listening to myself play..PTQ on the other hand & the control it permits me is what makes me go back every day to practice and play.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by peterws
3-4! b
Victory is in sight!

jamiecw makes it 3-5! wink Now come on. More Pianoteq people speak up. We have to drown out the PT naysayers out there smile


You counted jamiecw’s vote twice. That’s considered cheating so your two votes are disqualified. laugh
3:2

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/12/19 02:08 PM.

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