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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800480
01/10/19 10:55 AM
01/10/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
[quote=navindra]Well, some serious pianist and teachers think opposite. I know assistant professor in a branch of St. Petersburg conservatory, and she told me once:"I always say that practicing piano without pedal is like practicing swiming in a pool without water".


That's a nice way of seeing things and it sounds like a licence to do what you want. But on the other hand, there is the 'sustain hides a multitude of sins' school of thought which, alas, sounds true to me.

The assistant professor at the conservatory was right for more accomplished players at a higher level, I believe, but for lowlier beings, I think practising without pedal can teach you a lot about consistency and, thus, legato.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800481
01/10/19 10:55 AM
01/10/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....

Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!


Well, not that simple either laugh They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. I guess they use some modern electric contact materials.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800487
01/10/19 11:10 AM
01/10/19 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. .


That could be capacitance -- common in computer keyboards.


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800488
01/10/19 11:11 AM
01/10/19 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. I guess they use some modern electric contact materials.

Carbon is popular.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800496
01/10/19 11:18 AM
01/10/19 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....


Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!

Simple rubberdome contacts you also find in cheap computer keyboards. No mechanical switches (like in better computer keyboards) and no optical sensors except in the pedal.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800506
01/10/19 11:33 AM
01/10/19 11:33 AM
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I recently sold my DP - a Roland F140R and got (rented) an acoustic with a silent system - a Kawai K300 ATX2 - best of both worlds. I may try renting a small grand in a years time to see if the added price and size is worth it to me.

The on board sound of the ATX 2 isn’t great but usable when I absolutely have to be silent.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800508
01/10/19 11:38 AM
01/10/19 11:38 AM
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Under the each domes sit a black (carbon?) contact. When preseed each one strikes the underlying contact area on a PC board.
It's the same deal as that found on a TV remote control.
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use rubber cover switches. What's underneath I am not aware. .
That could be capacitance -- common in computer keyboards.


Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: toddy] #2800713
01/10/19 10:15 PM
01/10/19 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
But on the other hand, there is the 'sustain hides a multitude of sins' school of thought which, alas, sounds true to me.


Yeah I actually practise without the pedal when I'm trying to learn the notes of a piece accurately.

Two thoughts on this I can give :

1 : I have heard and read from a multitude of respectable sources that a bit of playing without the pedal does one good, and it suits me I think.

2 : It reminds me of guys who practise rock and roll guitar with the fuzz pedal on all the time. Turn it off and it's really sloppy.

In response to the original point, there's always this talk of "Digitals vs acoustics" - surely it's more "Pianos vs pianos" - you could almost say that the similarity between a good quality digital and a grand is more than the similarity between a grand and an upright. We have three different types here.

My VPC1 feels pretty similar to a couple of Grands I've tried in my time, but not very similar at all to my upright. So you could say that the VPC1 is more like the grands than the upright is.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800739
01/11/19 02:44 AM
01/11/19 02:44 AM
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The main difference between DP's and decent acoustics lies not so much in the touch itself, but rather how the touch generates sound. I've yet to encounter a DP which was as expressive and "sensitive" as a well-regulated good grand or high-end upright. The sound system of the DP is the main culprit, and the limitations of the samples also plays a part. Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.

That said, DP's can obviously still sound very good. But if anybody tries out a 130 cm Steingraeber SFM upright - the best upright in the world IMHO - and still thinks the best DP are even close, then they need to spend more time with the Steingraeber.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: oivavoi] #2800774
01/11/19 08:07 AM
01/11/19 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.



In terms of sound alone, I think Pianoteq is the least realistic of anything currently available.

Last edited by johnstaf; 01/11/19 08:07 AM.
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800775
01/11/19 08:16 AM
01/11/19 08:16 AM
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Me too, john. It just reeks with fakeness.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800789
01/11/19 09:21 AM
01/11/19 09:21 AM
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Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800791
01/11/19 09:26 AM
01/11/19 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO

OK, if we are all be counted in and out, then count me out! Pianoteq is the only reason I am still playing piano (only slight exaggeration) as the native sounds of my FP30 put me off so much that if I hadn't come across Pianoteq when I was searching for alternatives, my entire piano learning experiment might have come to an untimely early end after only two weeks!

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800818
01/11/19 10:45 AM
01/11/19 10:45 AM
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Concerning pianoteq: It's not so much about the sound as about how it responds to touch/input. Much much better than sample based DP's. I didn't like the sound up to 4, but I perceive 5 and 6 good. As good sound-wise as the best sampled VST's? Probably not. But much more realistic when it comes to how the touch generates music.

But reactions to piano's are subjective, to a certain degree. I was at a piano shop today amd played a renovated old ibach grand from the 20s. Perceived it as an amazing instrument, much more inviting and expressive than the Yamaha grand it stood next to. Then came another customer, and his reaction was the exact opposite.

With pianoteq vs samples, it can be the same thing. I'm mainly a jazz/improv player with a rather sensitive touch. For me, subtle responsiveness is the most important parameter of a piano. I therefore prefer small grands to large uprights, even though large uprights sound better. Same with pianoteq vs samples.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: oivavoi] #2800820
01/11/19 10:52 AM
01/11/19 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
Concerning pianoteq: It's not so much about the sound as about how it responds to touch/input.


I agree with this.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: johnstaf] #2800821
01/11/19 10:53 AM
01/11/19 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by oivavoi
Hence, playing with pianoteq over very good headphones is the closest I get to "reality" on a DP.



In terms of sound alone, I think Pianoteq is the least realistic of anything currently available.


Pianoteq pianos are at least all different. Try the Bechstein. It sounds like an old 'un. past it's best . . .AND you can detune it still further! What's not to like?


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800973
01/11/19 05:34 PM
01/11/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink

3-2... wink
Similar experience, from a P115, to a YDP163, then an FP30 & laslty an AP470 none made me enjoy listening to myself play..PTQ on the other hand & the control it permits me is what makes me go back every day to practice and play.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800976
01/11/19 05:47 PM
01/11/19 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Count me in for the party laugh I can possibly agree that *eventually* when played with a great piano action and through some (imaginary) great speaker placement with a lot of vibration and playability, Pianoteq might be realistic, but just playing it on headphones is close to being the most unrealistic piano experience. IMHO

OK, if we are all be counted in and out, then count me out! Pianoteq is the only reason I am still playing piano (only slight exaggeration) as the native sounds of my FP30 put me off so much that if I hadn't come across Pianoteq when I was searching for alternatives, my entire piano learning experiment might have come to an untimely early end after only two weeks!

So, I count 3-1 so far wink What other Pianoteq fans will join me in pushing back against the Horde? wink


3-3

same here fp-30+PTQ.... i could not play otherwise... just something aboutthe reponse as somebody said...

Last edited by fofig; 01/11/19 05:48 PM.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2801027
01/11/19 07:52 PM
01/11/19 07:52 PM
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For me it's ...
piano + The Grandeur
or
piano + Kawai EX Pro
or
piano + Vintage D

I gave up on the piano by itself years ago. Without a VST it doesn't sound like a piano.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: MacMacMac] #2801051
01/11/19 09:32 PM
01/11/19 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
For me it's ...
piano + The Grandeur
or
piano + Kawai EX Pro
or
piano + Vintage D

I gave up on the piano by itself years ago. Without a VST it doesn't sound like a piano.


I've always found with my playing that it sounds better without the VST actually. Or onboard sounds. And with the power button switched off as well, for some reason.

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