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DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. #2800108
01/09/19 12:02 PM
01/09/19 12:02 PM
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Posts: 318
Murmansk, Russia
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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I think that very often people find DPs touch very different from acoustic just because of wrong expectations. They play 30-40-50 years old pianos and then try DP and say "Oh, it's so terribly far away from acoustic". Same was with me when I tried acoustic for the first time after DP (I had Kawai CA17 with RM3 action) - it was 1980 built soviet baby-grand. Of course the touch was extremely different. After that I came to local music colledge and tried a couple of grands there (Irmler pianos, as I remember). They were relatively new, but played 24/7 by numerous students - so, the action was pretty battered and had some "wobbling" impression, and was far away from my DP too, It was an unpleasant surprise for me. But some time after I had a chance to practice on brand-new Yamaha upright. And - what a shock - I found it's touch much closer to DP than to all that acoustics I tried before. And even my teacher agreed.
After that I found out that some of the guys who told me that DP touch is far away from acoustics played no acoustic pianos except grand-mothers battered uprights they have at home.

P.S.:
By the way I have to say that beginners feel difference between keyboards stronger, IMHO. For a advanced player it takes a couple of minutes to get used to a new keyboard, while for a beginner it sometimes takes an entire practice session.
Same is with cars. Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another. While in the beginning it was like "O my God, it feels so different, How can I drive this one?!" smile


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800118
01/09/19 12:28 PM
01/09/19 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
And even my teacher agreed.

Wasn't your teacher the one who said that even a good hybrid like the NV10, was only "good for a digital?" smile

Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another.

Doesn't sound like you've tried to drive any old Lada Niva's from the 90's. wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800122
01/09/19 12:35 PM
01/09/19 12:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
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Digital pianos can in many cases be equally as dynamic and expressive as acoustic pianos when in proper hands. That doesn't mean their actions are the same, even if they feel the same.

Also, often the feel of a keyboard when switched off isn't very important. As I recently reported in another thread, the keyboard of P-515 and CLP-645 felt very similar to NU1 when switched off, particularly when comparing the initial static resistance, although their dynamic inertial weighting feels already different even when switched off, and then for some reason when switched on they are so different! There are many unconscious factors that contribute to how we feel about a piano and ultimately it's when playing an entire piece that matters. Keyboard feel alone might be very misleading without being related to an entire performance.

I know it all sounds vague, so let me give you a very concrete example. A particular difference I've found between real piano actions and digital ones (including the closest ones such as the Kawai wooden actions) is the feel of the detachable hammer. Maybe one won't perceive that as something important initially but unconsciously the feel of that flowing hammer gives you additional feedback regarding the state of the entire mechanics underneath your fingers so you can better transfer the proper quantity of energy into keys. In most (if not all) digital piano actions, you press a key which is hard-linked to the hammer weight and giving it inertia the whole key bottoms out to produce tone (with or without your finger still resting on it). Hence when you need to repeat that same key, you might have to feel the key again. Whereas on an acoustic action the hammer will be flying and the key will suddenly become light under your finger but won't bottom out and you will then feel when the hammer returns... It's all too confusing to explain these phenomena with words but I've spent quite a considerable time analyzing why I feel more comfortable controlling even worn out acoustic pianos rather than a digital.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800125
01/09/19 12:45 PM
01/09/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 318
Murmansk, Russia
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Now, after 10 years of driving, I can easily jump from one car with manual transmission into another.

Doesn't sound like you've tried to drive any old Lada Niva's from the 90's. wink



My first car was VAZ 2104 - ask your wife what a monster is it :)) I decided to sell it when I boght my Peugeot. I was on sale for about a month when the buyer appeared. He asked me to drive a little with him - I got used so much to Peugeot for this month that the first thought was "Gosh, how could I drive it?!"

Well, piano school in Russian has rather tough approach, as you now. And they usually say "The worse are the instrument you play as a kid, the easier it will be for you to play in the future on any instrument you'll have to play"
I discussed the necessity of playing without pedal with my teacher once. And she told me seriously:"What are you gonna do if you'll have to play an instrument with pedals broken, ha?" And she thought it's a good argument, untila I said:"I just won't play. I do not HAVE to play - I am an amateur, as you remember, I hope" smile

Last edited by PianoStartsAt33; 01/09/19 12:49 PM.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800239
01/09/19 05:28 PM
01/09/19 05:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
My first car was VAZ 2104 - ask your wife what a monster is it :))

Continuing off topic smile , but I did just mention to my wife and her response: "Well it's a Zhiguli," as if this then comprehensively explains everything smile

Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I discussed the necessity of playing without pedal with my teacher once. And she told me seriously:"What are you gonna do if you'll have to play an instrument with pedals broken, ha?" And she thought it's a good argument, untila I said:"I just won't play. I do not HAVE to play - I am an amateur, as you remember, I hope" smile

This reminds me of a story told to me by my Russian ex-wife (ok, know what you are thinking so stop thinking it wink LOL). When she was in school, her most hated subject was physics. She and her friend actually had a ceremonial burning of their physics books when she graduated and went to the university, to never take physics again. She especially hated her teacher who gave her low marks to ensure she could never get a Red Diploma. Once, her teacher asked her after a class on electromagnetism, "Well if you don't learn any of this, what will you do if you have an electrical problem at home?" My ex-wife's answer: "No I don't need to know any of this. Well, unlike you, I would have my future husband take care of such a problem!"


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800241
01/09/19 05:41 PM
01/09/19 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,243
Raleigh, North Carolina
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Raleigh, North Carolina
Excellent answer. (Can I get her phone number?)

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800244
01/09/19 05:45 PM
01/09/19 05:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 318
Murmansk, Russia
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PianoStartsAt33 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

This reminds me of a story told to me by my Russian ex-wife


Hmm... I wonder is it only you and me on this forum who have russian ex-wives smile ?


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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YoutubeChannel
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800245
01/09/19 05:45 PM
01/09/19 05:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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CyberGene  Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Tyrone, so your current wife knows what a Zhiguli (Жигули) is and your ex-wife is Russian. Are you Russian yourself or you just have a fixation on Russian women? laugh


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800250
01/09/19 05:57 PM
01/09/19 05:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Tyrone, so your current wife knows what a Zhiguli (Жигули) is and your ex-wife is Russian. Are you Russian yourself or you just have a fixation on Russian women? laugh

Both are Russian, ... and didn't I already preempt your exact question with my: "(ok, know what you are thinking so stop thinking it wink LOL)"

Haha.... But by way of partial excuse, I could venture forth the comment that I did live and work in Moscow for a few years, while cleverly simultaneously avoiding your actual direct question. wink LOL

BTW, I'm Chinese, born and bred in China and I even, perhaps unusual for this PW forum, have citizenship there. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800252
01/09/19 06:00 PM
01/09/19 06:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 95
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Markuska Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
A particular difference I've found between real piano actions and digital ones (including the closest ones such as the Kawai wooden actions) is the feel of the detachable hammer. Maybe one won't perceive that as something important initially but unconsciously the feel of that flowing hammer gives you additional feedback regarding the state of the entire mechanics underneath your fingers so you can better transfer the proper quantity of energy into keys. In most (if not all) digital piano actions, you press a key which is hard-linked to the hammer weight and giving it inertia the whole key bottoms out to produce tone (with or without your finger still resting on it). Hence when you need to repeat that same key, you might have to feel the key again. Whereas on an acoustic action the hammer will be flying and the key will suddenly become light under your finger but won't bottom out and you will then feel when the hammer returns... It's all too confusing to explain these phenomena with words but I've spent quite a considerable time analyzing why I feel more comfortable controlling even worn out acoustic pianos rather than a digital.



THIS! The hammers! I am searching for a DP atm for around €2000 and was thinking about spending more. And by luck I had the chance to play an old upright acoustic piano some days ago. This was when I decided to not spend much more for a DP. Its just so much of a difference to me - the feeling of the hammers is just so nice.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800275
01/09/19 06:58 PM
01/09/19 06:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
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Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Also, often the feel of a keyboard when switched off isn't very important. As I recently reported in another thread, the keyboard of P-515 and CLP-645 felt very similar to NU1 when switched off, particularly when comparing the initial static resistance, although their dynamic inertial weighting feels already different even when switched off, and then for some reason when switched on they are so different! There are many unconscious factors that contribute to how we feel about a piano and ultimately it's when playing an entire piece that matters. Keyboard feel alone might be very misleading without being related to an entire performance.


That is strange about the feel changing when the digital is switched on. I thought they all used optical sensors, which shouldn't exhibit a difference.

Perhaps compare the P515 in two different conditions: 1. Unplugged from the mains, no electric power at all. 2. Plugged in, switched on, but with an adapter plugged into the headphone jack so there is no sound. If those feel different, could it be that they're doing something with electromagnetism to affect how the keys move and feel? If they feel the same, then it must be the absence or presence of audible feedback that makes the difference. If that's the case, then try different settings on the volume control to see if that changes your perception of the feel....


-- J.S.

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800277
01/09/19 07:01 PM
01/09/19 07:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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I didn’t mean the mechanical feel changes. It’s the entire perception of how the piano feels in a broader sense.


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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800280
01/09/19 07:06 PM
01/09/19 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I didn’t mean the mechanical feel changes. It’s the entire perception of how the piano feels in a broader sense.


Ah, good -- in that case, do try different volume settings and see how that alters the overall perception. Low volume, you have to play harder, high volume, you play lighter.


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800315
01/09/19 09:01 PM
01/09/19 09:01 PM
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navindra Online content
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Perhaps your teacher didn't have a good answer for the need to practice without a pedal, but this seems more convincing:

The Importance of Playing Piano without the Pedal


Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800359
01/10/19 01:52 AM
01/10/19 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
That is strange about the feel changing when the digital is switched on. I thought they all used optical sensors, which shouldn't exhibit a difference.

Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors. Of the current crop, I think only the AvantGrands and the Novus do (and maybe some other outlier I'm not aware of). And silent systems for acoustics.

Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JoBert] #2800443
01/10/19 09:19 AM
01/10/19 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors.


OK, what do they use? Hall effect? Capacitance?


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: JohnSprung] #2800447
01/10/19 09:34 AM
01/10/19 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by JoBert
Actually, almost none of the DPs use optical sensors.


OK, what do they use? Hall effect? Capacitance?

They use simple contact switches that are pressed in succession and thus a time duration is measured.


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Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: navindra] #2800471
01/10/19 10:29 AM
01/10/19 10:29 AM
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Murmansk, Russia
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Originally Posted by navindra
Perhaps your teacher didn't have a good answer for the need to practice without a pedal, but this seems more convincing:

The Importance of Playing Piano without the Pedal



Well, some serious pianist and teachers think opposite. I know assistant professor in a branch of St. Petersburg conservatory, and she told me once:"I always say that practicing piano without pedal is like practicing swiming in a pool without water".


"No succes of failure matters when it's about true vocation". Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Roland FP-90

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Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: CyberGene] #2800476
01/10/19 10:49 AM
01/10/19 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They use simple contact switches ....


Yecch! Metal to metal contact? Dirt, noise, reliability -- Yecch!


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: DP touch VS acouctic touch: some thoughts. [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2800477
01/10/19 10:53 AM
01/10/19 10:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Some (most?) interpreters play Bach without using the sustain pedal on the piano and that seems the proper way indeed, taking in mind Bach predominantly composed his keyboard pieces on harpsichord, clavichord and organ, none of which has a sustain pedal. I see a lot of amateur pianists either blurring Bach with the sustain pedal into a huge mess or playing without a sustain pedal but at the same time not phrasing properly through good legato technique. So, playing without a pedal isn't without its importance.


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Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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