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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798621 01/05/19 01:21 AM
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Well, I think age and psychology do matter somehow.
When I was a kid I really liked some 8-bit NES games music. 8-bit sound. Not sure any of old grumblers is capable of that smile


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798639 01/05/19 04:39 AM
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I feel exactly the same way. I've never heard a DP that sounded and responded like a real piano. I have very mixed feelings about Pianoteq. I think that my Roland FP-90 is more piano like when I get used to the sound, while Pianoteq is more interesting but less realistic. My favourite VST has always been VSL's Vienna Imperial, but now I'm using their Synchron Steinway D, and I'm very impressed with it.

Last edited by johnstaf; 01/05/19 04:41 AM.
Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798644 01/05/19 05:26 AM
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I think that, may be, DP sound just doesn't have to be "real" - what we have now is enough to cheat our feelings. It's like with VR glasses. One puts them on and now for shure that all that he sees is not real. But soon begins behaving sa if he is in real world, not in a game.


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798655 01/05/19 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I know it sounds like a total waste of time but I had an hour or two today which I decided to spend by listening to YouTube or official website demos of all the latest digital pianos. I've played most of them or listened to demos many times in the past so this isn't something new. Anyway.

I simply couldn't like any of them frown To put it mildly.

Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!
Latest Yamaha pianos: sharp and rough.
Kawai Rendering: dull, boring, sterile, way too clean (regardless of characters/modes)
Dexibell: probably the worst of them all. Maybe not suitable for listening with headphones but I barely managed to withstand listening to any of the latest platinum extended sounds: distant, mono-like, over-processed, nasal
Casio: "plink-plonk"
Nord: actually the only ones I kind of liked, however on many of the demos it seems like the dynamic curves or velocity mappings might not be well made since many players produced what appeared to be too high velocities compared to the context of say softer passage, might be wrong, need to test.

(Haven't listened to any Korg and Kurzweil though)

I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.
-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?


Did you listen to all these instruments using the same headphones?


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798659 01/05/19 07:40 AM
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See, it’s not the YouTube compression, nor the headphones smile VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798662 01/05/19 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

Since you asked: I think you've maybe fallen (a bit) into this trap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798678 01/05/19 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?

My HD800's are broken. I've been struggling with them for months. Most recently with Sennheiser's repair center. They keep trying to claim replacing my $200 cable with a $120 cable will fix the faulty left driver. LOL. I keep explaining to them I have swapped the sides of the drivers with my cable, many times, and it is always is the left driver, so there is nothing wrong with the cable or its connectors. They don't seem to understand the implication of the fact I can do this and the problem remains on the left side. There's a 90-day warranty on repairs so I am thinking about just letting them do this stupid thing since I don't seem to be getting through to them, and when the left driver again doesn't work with their new cable, I'll just send it back again and ask them to fix for real. Lame.

I wish I had an HD650 to use instead right now, but all I have is an inexpensive pair of Roland brand headphones. frown


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
Tyrone Slothrop #2798686 01/05/19 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?

My HD800's are broken. I've been struggling with them for months. Most recently with Sennheiser's repair center. They keep trying to claim replacing my $200 cable with a $120 cable will fix the faulty left driver. LOL. I keep explaining to them I have swapped the sides of the drivers with my cable, many times, and it is always is the left driver, so there is nothing wrong with the cable or its connectors. They don't seem to understand the implication of the fact I can do this and the problem remains on the left side. There's a 90-day warranty on repairs so I am thinking about just letting them do this stupid thing since I don't seem to be getting through to them, and when the left driver again doesn't work with their new cable, I'll just send it back again and ask them to fix for real. Lame.

I wish I had an HD650 to use instead right now, but all I have is an inexpensive pair of Roland brand headphones. frown

LOL, I feel your pain! It's kind of like when you call your internet provider because your internet is down, and they make you do the things you already tried like rebooting the router. Even if you tell them you already tried that, they won't go to the next step on their flowchart until you actually do it again. crazy


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
JoBert #2798706 01/05/19 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.

Are your headphones broken too? Or are you making a joke?


I was being sarcastic smile Because I felt Doug M. might have implied it is my headphones to blame for hearing all digital piano demos as unconvincing. As I said, all sample based VST pianos sound great on YouTube through the same headphones so it just that digital pianos are lagging behind.

BTW, a good piano sound is a good piano sound (and conversely a bad piano sound is bad) regardless of headphones used. I've proven that to myself so many times when listening even on my tiny AirPods (which BTW are my favorite piece of technology ever and I could even go as far as to say I prefer them to my HD650 when all is taken into account - no wires, mobility, comfort, battery life, recharging through their case, easy connectivity with all my Apple devices, and of course amazing sound quality for such a small earbud).

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

Since you asked: I think you've maybe fallen (a bit) into this trap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

That was an interesting read, thanks! Probably very close to the truth indeed. I especially liked this quote:
Quote
Economist George Stigler says that "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."


It reminds me a constant argument between me, who is so often late by a little for everything, and my wife who feels very bad if late so is always way too early for everything. And I have found an interesting paper that studied people like me who are always late and discovered that the root cause is because the people who are late, actually feel inefficient if they come early because they will have to just sit and wait, so they try to be exactly on time but due to the unpredictable nature of our world this can't usually happen and they are either seeing they have some time ahead and so do something else, ultimately being late again, or just come late. I can't agree more with that because it is exactly why I'm always late, not because I want to be disrespectful to other people. And I know some cultures, e.g. the American, takes one being late as a huge disrespect and even insult... Fortunately in our eastern European part of the world things are different laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/05/19 10:05 AM.

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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798940 01/06/19 12:39 AM
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I realized that I felt the same recently.

Until I came across these videos over here this thread

Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
MahdiBlackStar #2798954 01/06/19 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MahdiBlackStar
I realized that I felt the same recently.

Until I came across these videos over here this thread
this post actually confirms CyberGene’s finds that the digitals are a no match to acoustic grands.

The big ad for the Yamaha Clavinova is that they have sampled their top-of-the-line CFXIII (or whatever), however, the Clavinovas sound nothing like the real thing (and let me not start with the Bösendorfer sample which is next-to-useless IMO)

I can only join the eneral concensus that the digitals are good for learning or exercising but as far as recording and performing goes they are not substitute for an acoustic. If one wants to learn to play, they can get by with a digital. If one wants to learn how to perform, then an acoustic is all the way.

Yet the digitals are getting better with each generation. The progress is very slow but it’s there. I find myself actually looking forward to the Clavinova CLP 700 series which may be released next year (2020) but if they do not match my expectation I’ll be done with digitals and will buy a good acoustic instead. As a kid I learned on Petroff, it has a very specific sound which I’m accustomed to.

I’m actually a viola player but got interested in playing Chopin’s works (Fantasie-Impromptu) It’s a great challenge for a non-professional but why not. IMO everyone with moderate playing skills can learn it but only a few can actually perform it.

https://youtu.be/pK2gHiwydDo

Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2798978 01/06/19 04:52 AM
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There are excellent piano alternatives out there for home playing like Pyrophone, Hydrolauphone or Stalacpipe organ. Meet the living under clear sky. If anyone is still desperate, there is always Double contrabass flute. I am using it all the time laugh

Last edited by slobajudge; 01/06/19 04:59 AM.
Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2799024 01/06/19 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
See, it’s not the YouTube compression, nor the headphones smile VST-s sound great with the “faulty” HD650-s.


Lol, I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I implied it might be your headphones ;-)


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2799027 01/06/19 08:21 AM
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I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s. You should try an RMI 'piano' and then reconsider this thread. smile

I would have given anything back then for what we have today.


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2799119 01/06/19 01:50 PM
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Nothing digital can replace an AP. Me ? After trying them all two years ago, I bought a Korg. Best compromise between playability, programmability, touch/sound response and overall satisfaction while playing. You won't be able to select the best one for you until you test and play them yourself. So listening to audio or watching video files don't tell much.

Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
slobajudge #2799236 01/06/19 09:08 PM
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I am giving thumb up for CyberGene on this topic and I almost agree what did you stated:
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Previous LX-series: even worse!
Latest Yamaha pianos: sharp and rough.
Kawai Rendering: dull, boring, sterile, way too clean (regardless of characters/modes)
Casio: "plink-plonk"
Nord: actually the only ones I kind of liked
(Haven't listened to any Korg and Kurzweil though)

IMO Roland modelling is step back from SuperNatural (I mean solo playing).
Kawai for me only have great imitation of grand piano action.
I had Nord piano 2. I played couple of times on Nord piano 3 (Nord piano 4 not yet but soon) and still I miss for simplicity of this instrument but I am not gigging (I am home player only) and this gear is not for me.
Someone experienced in nord gears on nord forum said about previous and new released samples form Clavia: "again a nice cymbaloms ;)" and I would agree with that.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Casio: "plink-plonk"

I love it laugh

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've also listened to demos of a few sample-based VST-s such as Ivory, CFX, Vintage D, etc. and they all sounded fabulous. I know the problem with them is playability and I personally have managed to connect (and love) CFX only.

Personally I love german Steinway and that cause I have chosen Ivory Grand Pianos. I own it from few days and ia am in heaven smile Maybe if I would have much better PC I would choose VSL Steinawy D but not for sure. I tried last week Pianoteq 6 and I have a mixed feelings ...sorry, no.
I don't like too much Yamaha sounds but C7 from Ivory quite impressed me. I like Garritan CFX sound much more than C7 but this same problem like with VSLs - too poor PC.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?

No, I don't think like that. I am average aged and I am not able to tolerate bad and unnatural sound.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It reminds me a constant argument between me, who is so often late by a little for everything ...

...the root cause is because the people who are late, actually feel inefficient if they come early because they will have to just sit and wait, so they try to be exactly on time but due to the unpredictable nature of our world this can't usually happen and they are either seeing they have some time ahead and so do something else, ultimately being late again, or just come late. I can't agree more with that because it is exactly why I'm always late, not because I want to be disrespectful to other people

OMG! I am this same! Always on time or a little bit late but never early. Being somewhere too early frustrate me.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Fortunately in our eastern European part of the world things are different laugh

That's true but not every parts of eastern Europe. For example, even in my country is not always the same, especially in west side (closer to german culture) of Poland, people are much more strict than on east side, near Ukraine.

Originally Posted by TrollToddington
I can only join the eneral concensus that the digitals are good for learning or exercising but as far as recording and performing goes they are not substitute for an acoustic. If one wants to learn to play, they can get by with a digital. If one wants to learn how to perform, then an acoustic is all the way.

IMO digital pianos are dentures of acoustic grands, what I repeating for many new people on muzykuj.com forum, who asking about really good instrument. Maybe enough for reading and researching new piano works and spontaneous playing but completely not enough good for practicing interpretation of classical works. VSTs ar good compromise but you will never touch a heaven if you don't play on good (tuned and well prepared) acoustic grand.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
There are excellent piano alternatives out there for home playing like Pyrophone, Hydrolauphone or Stalacpipe organ. Meet the living under clear sky. If anyone is still desperate, there is always Double contrabass flute. I am using it all the time laugh

laugh
That way I am also playing on trumpet, cornet ...and bamboo flute wink I am trying ocarina but still unsucesfull.

Last edited by Rychubil; 01/06/19 09:10 PM.

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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2799992 01/09/19 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
PianoStartsAt33 #2799994 01/09/19 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


This might seem like a proper analogy but it isn't smile Ultimately it's the final result that matters. I don't care how human voice is created, I only care if it is beautiful. Same with piano sound. To my ears the final result of the current or previous fully modeled Roland pianos isn't good enough EVEN with the rich resonances added. But that's just my ears. YMMV as they say smile


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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2799997 01/09/19 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Originally Posted by CyberGene


Newest LX-series: thin, boxed, mono-like sound that is disguised by very good resonances and stuff but the core part is meh.
Previous LX-series: even worse!

-----
But started wondering: is this a burnout that I am having? Am I too picky? Becoming grumpy old man? smile What do you think?



Have you ever heard a sound of vocal cords coming close to pruduce sound of human voice? Initially, it's just sone kind of unpleasant hissing or something like that. Only when this sound comes through our body, when it's enriched with chest and head resonances, we can hear that beautiful singing tone, for example. May be, it's just the same with the piano? Resonances (cabinet, open stirngs etc.) do not mask anyting - resonances create piano sound.


This might seem like a proper analogy but it isn't smile Ultimately it's the final result that matters. I don't care how human voice is created, I only care if it is beautiful. Same with piano sound. To my ears the final result of the current or previous fully modeled Roland pianos isn't good enough EVEN with the rich resonances added. But that's just my ears. YMMV as they say smile



Reminded me a story once told by an old russian opera singer. He said when he was young he had a chance to perform in India in front of some half-wild tribe. And these local guys found all these opera stuff sound unpleasant. While we think it's beautiful. Although, not all of us - I know many teenagers grown up on pop, rap or and rock music that might say opera singing sound unpleasant to them.
So, this all is just a collection of IMHOs smile

Last edited by PianoStartsAt33; 01/09/19 07:49 AM.

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Re: I hate all digital pianos' sound, is this a burnout? :)
CyberGene #2800005 01/09/19 07:54 AM
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Once again, this is an analogy that might have its merits but I don't think is applicable in my case. I've grown up with the piano, my mother plays piano, I've played many different pianos, including grand and upright pianos, I've listened to piano music all my life so I know exactly how an acoustic piano should sound, although they differ a lot, yet they have their specific inherent character that's currently missing in modeled pianos.


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