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Multiple MIDI On question #2799605
01/08/19 03:58 AM
01/08/19 03:58 AM
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Audetto Offline OP
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Hi

Piano is a CA78, Local Control OFF.

I am sending these Midi messages on a fixed channel and for a fixed note.

Time, Message

1, ON
2, ON
3, OFF
4, OFF

What is the expected behaviour?
Will the note go silent at time 3 or 4?

Background:

Piano -> App -> Piano

ON Messages are passed through unchanged
OFF Messages are delayed by 1 sec (so to achieve a dynamic legato/overlapping/pedal).

Works well until I play the same note multiple times.
It feels like the first OFF kills the note regardless how many ON I have sent.

I have only read that there should be as many OFF as ON, but I could not find any clear spec online.

Does anybody know how it is supposed to work.

Thank you


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799665
01/08/19 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto


Works well until I play the same note multiple times.
It feels like the first OFF kills the note regardless how many ON I have sent.

I have only read that there should be as many OFF as ON, but I could not find any clear spec online.

Does anybody know how it is supposed to work.

Thank you


I think yes, a note on most be accompanied by a note off, so that sounds normal. What are the velocities of the note ons you are sending? If the later one are low, the initial one would more or less kill the sound when terminated.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799696
01/08/19 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto
I am sending these Midi messages on a fixed channel and for a fixed note.

Time, Message

1, ON
2, ON
3, OFF
4, OFF

What is the expected behaviour?
Will the note go silent at time 3 or 4?

Time 3. Assuming two things are true: (1) You're playing a sound that does not have a long Release built into it (notes don't go silent until the end of the Release portion of the envelope), and (2) you're not depressing a sustain pedal.

Originally Posted by Audetto
I have only read that there should be as many OFF as ON

That is false.

An ON command for middle C initiates the middle C sound. You can continue to initiate it multiple times, without sending any OFF command (that's essentially the virtue of a triple sensor). The OFF command for middle C will terminate it, regardless of how many times you had sent the ON command. And if it didn't, you'd have stuck notes for those repetitions, because once you lift a key, you can't lift it again!

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2799700
01/08/19 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
The OFF command for middle C will terminate it, regardless of how many times you had sent the ON command.


Whole that answers when a note should be terminated, it doesn't mean there shouldn't be an OFF corresponding to each ON, right?


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2799703
01/08/19 09:52 AM
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This is a valid explanation.

Both things are true though, as I have found on the MIDI spec

Page 94 here https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/category/midi-1-0-detailed-specifications

If an instrument receives two or more Note On messages with the same key number and MIDI channel,
it must make a determination of how to handle the additional Note Ons. It is up to the receiver as to
whether the same voice or another voice will be sounded, or if the messages will be ignored. The
transmitter, however, must send a corresponding Note Off message for every Note On sent. If the
transmitter were to send only one Note Off message, and if the receiver in fact assigned the two Note
On messages to different voices, then one note would linger. Since there is no harm or negative side
effect in sending redundant Note Off messages this is the recommended practice.

The CA78 seems to have decided to
1) play the note again
2) stop at the first OFF
3) ignore other OFF
which seems to be a valid implementation.

I guess it requires more work on my side then.

Last edited by Audetto; 01/08/19 09:53 AM.

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(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799711
01/08/19 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto
The CA78 seems to have decided to
1) play the note again
2) stop at the first OFF
3) ignore other OFF
which seems to be a valid implementation.

It's especially valid in the context of a 3-sensor DP like the CA78, where you can indeed generate multiple note on messages without first generating note off messages (by lifting the key above the second sensor, then striking it down again to the third sensor, multiple times, but never lifting up to the first sensor), but where it is impossible to generate the matching multiple note off events at different times.

Meaning: If you generate multiple note ons in this fashion (lifting above sensor 2, then striking again, never lifting above sensor 1), and if you then finally "lower the damper" of that key by fully lifting the key, then the piano will simply generate all note off events at the same time, at the moment the key goes above sensor one (well, I'm assuming that the CA78 generates these note offs with the same time stamp, technically they are of course still one after the other, in the serial MIDI protocol).

So while a sequence like "note on -> note on -> note off -> note off" can be generated using the instrument's keyboard, there will never be an actual time delay between the two note offs. So there wouldn't be any reason for the piano to wait for the last note off to stop playing the note (for which it would have to maintain some sort of counter, or stack, or whatever).

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799718
01/08/19 10:46 AM
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A note OFF event releases (stops) the corresponding note ON. Multiple ON events (for the same note and on the same channel) will be released by a single OFF event. Instead of using OFF, some MIDI implementations use the ON event with velocity of zero, which has the same meaning.

From the spec (https://www.midi.org/)
Quote

Note Off

Category: Voice
Purpose

Indicates that a particular note should be released. Essentially, this means that the note stops sounding, but some patches might have a long VCA release time that needs to slowly fade the sound out. Additionally, the device's Hold Pedal controller may be on, in which case the note's release is postponed until the Hold Pedal is released. In any event, this message either causes the VCA to move into the release stage, or if the Hold Pedal is on, indicates that the note should be released (by the device automatically) when the Hold Pedal is turned off. If the device is a MultiTimbral unit, then each one of its Parts may respond to Note Offs on its own channel. The Part that responds to a particular Note Off message is the one assigned to the message's MIDI channel.

Data

Two data bytes follow the Status.

The first data is the note number. There are 128 possible notes on a MIDI device, numbered 0 to 127 (where Middle C is note number 60). This indicates which note should be released.

The second data byte is the velocity, a value from 0 to 127. This indicates how quickly the note should be released (where 127 is the fastest). It's up to a MIDI device how it uses velocity information. Often velocity will be used to tailor the VCA release time. MIDI devices that can generate Note Off messages, but don't implement velocity features, will transmit Note Off messages with a preset velocity of 64.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: arc7urus] #2799771
01/08/19 01:39 PM
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Ok, ok: I was imaging some reference count but it is clearly not the case.

I think the algorithm I want, could work like that.
Imagine I want to set the duration of every note to 5 seconds no matter what the pianist does.

This thing complicates a lot my app as before I was relying on the ability of android to sort Midi commands out if order: I was just changing the Note Off time to T+5 seconds.

With this behaviour I must deliver the events (OFF) at the right time (so not in the future) as they might be cancelled by other Note ON that arrive meanwhile.

So imagine ON received at times 1, 3

Originally I was posting OFF at time 6, 8 (in the future, as I was doing it when the ON arrives),
but not when I receive ON at 3, I must cancel the future OFF at 6 and only deliver OFF at 8.
Or maybe 2 OFFs at 8 to keep the count ok.

Some threading and sleeping seems required now.


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(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799803
01/08/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Audetto

This thing complicates a lot my app as before I was relying on the ability of android to sort Midi commands out if order: I was just changing the Note Off time to T+5 seconds.


Can you rely on the fact that Note-Offs in these cases typically come simultaneously? You can have subsequent Note-On events at any x time, but all the Note-Offs for that the same keypress should come together (when the physical key is released, however many Note-Offs have been queued will all trigger together). That may make things easier and save you the need to count events.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799819
01/08/19 04:39 PM
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I think you have your answer now ...
Originally Posted by Audetto
With this behaviour I must deliver the events (OFF) at the right time (so not in the future) as they might be cancelled by other Note ON that arrive meanwhile.

So imagine ON received at times 1, 3

Originally I was posting OFF at time 6, 8 (in the future, as I was doing it when the ON arrives),
but not when I receive ON at 3, I must cancel the future OFF at 6 and only deliver OFF at 8.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799824
01/08/19 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by anotherscott
The OFF command for middle C will terminate it, regardless of how many times you had sent the ON command.

While that answers when a note should be terminated, it doesn't mean there shouldn't be an OFF corresponding to each ON, right?

OFF is simply sent when a certain sensor is triggered, no one-to-one correspondence is required, So for example, on a 3-sensor board, you can send Note ON, then lift just slightly (not enough to trigger a Note OFF) and restrike to send a second Note ON, and continue to do that as many times as you want, then release the key and send a single Note OFF which will silence the note, no matter how many times you struck it. It does not send an additional Note OFF for every time you restruck the key. The Note OFF is a simple command instigated by a single event: "the key has been released above this point." There is no mechanism to "keep count" of how many Note ONs there were, nor is there any need for such a mechanism.

Originally Posted by JoBert
the piano will simply generate all note off events at the same time, at the moment the key goes above sensor one (well, I'm assuming that the CA78 generates these note offs with the same time stamp

Only a single Note Off is generated when that sensor is triggered. MIDI time stamping is relevant for sequencers, but not live performance. The notes you play in real time on the CA76 are not time stamped.

Originally Posted by Audetto
Or maybe 2 OFFs at 8 to keep the count ok.

I'm not sure exactly what you're after, but there is no need to "keep the count ok" as far as MIDI is concerned. As arc7urus said, "Multiple ON events (for the same note and on the same channel) will be released by a single OFF event." There is no requirement for each ON to have an OFF, and MIDI does not inherently "keep count" of anything.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799830
01/08/19 05:09 PM
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@abotherscott : there is a need to count NOTE ON. If you read the specs :

The transmitter, however, must send a corresponding Note Off message for every Note On sent.


Then if we have 3 Note On, we will need 3 Note Off to be compliant. However, some sound generator can switch all note off while receiving the first Note Off and the 2 others are not needed, but the emitter can’t know if the receiver would need them.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Frédéric L] #2799832
01/08/19 05:22 PM
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If this is true, then It seems that a properly functioning piano MUST violate the spec.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
If you read the specs:
The transmitter, however, must send a corresponding Note Off message for every Note On sent.
You really have to have a piano allow for a note-on, followed by another, and another ... and eventually just one note-off. How else could MIDI handle repetitions?

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799838
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@MacMacMac : MIDI over USB was invented to permit sending numerous Note Off at an high rate. wink

More seriously, it could be interesting to measure the higher limit, but if it is a 16 bits counter, you would have an hard time doing it.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799851
01/08/19 06:34 PM
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Again talking in terms of a 3-sensor piano...

In theory, a device *could* keep track of how many times it sent consecutive human-generated Note On events to the tone generator, and then artificially generate a like number of nearly-simultaneous Note Off events when the human sends his one Note Off event (i.e. when he releases the key high enough to trigger that sensor). But MIDI has no such functionality built into it. At least nothing I'm aware of.

If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Frédéric L] #2799871
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Speed isn't what counts. You don't want ANY note-offs upon repetition. You want note-on, note-on, note-on ... and eventually note-off. Speedy note-offs are not the point at all.[quote=Frédéric L]@MacMacMac : MIDI over USB was invented to permit sending numerous Note Off at an high rate.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2799881
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Speed isn't what counts. You don't want ANY note-offs upon repetition. You want note-on, note-on, note-on ... and eventually note-off. Speedy note-offs are not the point at all.

Multiple Note-Offs in extremely rapid succession wouldn't hurt anything... it's just that there's no need to do it,

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799890
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If you're repeating a note you DO NOT want the note-off. You want the first note-on to continue to ring, followed by another note-on, and another.
You don't want the note-off until you release that key.
And then ... only ONE note-off is needed. I can't see why any piano would generate more than one.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2799900
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

And then ... only ONE note-off is needed. I can't see why any piano would generate more than one.


My guess is that the MIDI spec for Note-On and Note-Off is not limited to pianos? Also, because digital pianos typically include dozens/hundreds of additional non-piano voices/functions, and furthermore serve as MIDI controllers for other instruments, it makes sense to follow the MIDI spec even if it's not strictly necessary in a single specific use case. The standard would probably suffer significantly if every instrument decided to ignore the standard and implement the spec in a way that only behooves itself.

Anyways, I figure most DPs behave this way in order to adhere to the spec, not because they believe it absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of the piano tone.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2799905
01/08/19 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If you're repeating a note you DO NOT want the note-off. You want the first note-on to continue to ring, followed by another note-on, and another.
You don't want the note-off until you release that key. And then ... only ONE note-off is needed.


If you repeat a note, you may or may not want a note off in between, those are equally valid musical decisions (and can be determined by how high you lift your finger). BUT, assuming you want to take advantage of the 3-sensor feature as we've been talking about which allows you to repeat a note without lifting the key so high as to send a Note Off (which would silence the note, unless your sustain pedal is down), then I agree, "you don't want the note-off until you release that key" -- however, sending additional Note Off commands at that point. won't hurt anything, either.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2799907
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[My guess is that the MIDI spec for Note-On and Note-Off is not limited to pianos?

Correct, there's no separate MIDI spec for pianos.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Anyways, I figure most DPs behave this way in order to adhere to the spec, not because they believe it absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of the piano tone.

Are you assuming most DPs send multiple Note Off commands if need be to correspond to the number of Note On commands that were sent (i.e. in the 3-sensor scenario we've been discussing)? I do not believe that to be the case. As I mentioned, I'd be curious to see if anyone here has a DP where they could play it into a MIDI Monitor or sequencer, and see numerous Note Offs generated from a single Note Off key release, in order to "balance out" numerous consecutive low-sensor Note On events. I would be surprised to see that.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799920
01/08/19 11:01 PM
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Ok, I did that, and ...

First: My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)

I played a note repeatedly, raising the key substantially each time. The result was note-on note-off note-on note-off note-on note-off. As expected.

But if I raised the key only VERY slightly before pressing again, the result was note-on note-on note-on note-on note-on ... until I released and obtained note-off.
This is as expected. More note-ons than note-offs.

Is that a violation of the spec?
Who cares? It's necessary for repetition on the piano.

If you don't raise the key very much between presses you don't want the note to be damped by a note-off.
The above MIDI behavior properly produces this result.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2799961
01/09/19 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)

That's a bold assumption (that most pianos behave this way). wink
I don't think it's correct. Because at least those pianos that want to transmit a release velocity will have to send a proper note off event (with that velocity). I know that the NV10 does this (although it always sends a constant release velocity), and the CA models send note off with release velocity too, AFAIK. The CLP6x5 series also sends note off with velocity (according to the specs PDF) and I would be surprised if other models (and from Roland) did not too. People expect it these days, so that their expensive VSTs can properly trigger their release samples.

And regarding the "proper number of note off events for the matching note on events": In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs if the user does this restriking-without-damping multiple times, because you are under the wrong impression that note-on and note-off signals have to come in alternating order, i.e. that before a new note-on can be sent, first a note-off must be sent. I.e. you seem to assume that it would require a sequence like this:

Strike the key the 1st time: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note off + Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note off + Note on
Release key: Note off

(Which would indeed not be the proper behavior for a piano.)

Not sure if that was indeed your assumption or if I just misinterpreted your posts, but anyway, that message order is not required. AFAIK, the following sequence would also be legal in the MIDI standard (that's the sequence anotherscott was talking about):

Strike the key the 1st time: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note on
Release key: 3x Note off

Originally Posted by anotherscott
As I mentioned, I'd be curious to see if anyone here has a DP where they could play it into a MIDI Monitor or sequencer, and see numerous Note Offs generated from a single Note Off key release, in order to "balance out" numerous consecutive low-sensor Note On events. I would be surprised to see that.

I thought I had a vague recollection that is was exactly what my NV10 does, but I'm not sure if maybe in my memory I'm confusing this with multiple different notes being played. I'll check again later today and get back to you.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799972
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The MIDI spec is tightly connected to how a digital sequencer works. Trying to relate MIDI events with sensors and note repetition on a digital piano only introduces unnecessary confusion IMO.

Going back to MIDI and the spec...
  • There can be multiple ON events for the same note without a corresponding OFF event. This is valid as per the MIDI spec. Some implementations may generate an OFF event for each ON event in some situations, but this behaviour cannot be generalized and actually depends on what wants to be achieved. In any case, the spec places no restrictions on the order of these events.
  • An OFF event will release a note (on a specific channel) irrespective of how many ON events precede it.
  • An OFF event will not "stop" the sound of the note. Instead, it will initiate the Release phase of that note.
  • The ON and OFF events control the ADSR envelope on the sequencer. Note ON starts the Attack phase (which is followed by the Decay and Sustain phases) and note OFF starts the Release phase.
  • The Release will be postponed in case there is an active "Hold Pedal" control event. Other MIDI Control Change events also change how the envelope is processed and sound is produced and may override the default behaviour of the note ON/OFF events. Some of this behaviour is not in the spec but is device/implementation dependent.
  • The sound of an active (ON) note can also be dynamically modified using After Touch and Channel Pressure events.
  • The MIDI spec does not specify what happens if a note ON event is received for a note that is still active and that has not yet been released. There are many options and they are device dependent. For example, a device may opt to (1) completely cut-off the previous note (without releasing it) and retrigger the new note, (2) release and retrigger the note (i.e. start the Release phase of the previous note while simultaneously retriggering the new note from the start f the Attack phase), (3) produce a specific transition between the new note and previous note using alternative Release and Attack phases (this option is often implemented to simulate monophonic woodwind and brass instruments and some string instruments) or (4) keep the previous note unaffected and "layer" the new note. Options 1, 2, 3 are possible implementations of the so-called Monophonic mode and can be found in sequencers and synths. Option 4 would require MultiTimbral or Poly mode and would require an OFF event for each ON event to work properly. However, none of this behaviour is part of the MIDI spec.


@audetto: I have not yet understood what you are trying to achieve ;-) Are you trying to layer multiple instances of the same note?

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799975
01/09/19 05:59 AM
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There are no true note-off messages here. That's just the way my piano works. And from what I read back in the day most others did likewise. After-touch (so-called) was not implemented.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)
That's a bold assumption (that most pianos behave this way).
I don't think it's correct. Because at least those pianos that want to transmit a release velocity will have to send a proper note off event (with that velocity).
It's refreshing to see that some pianos have advanced and now send the formal note-off message.
I wonder whether this has trickled down to the lower-cost pianos?

I'm not sure who you refer to when you say "you".
Originally Posted by JoBert
In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs ...
I do not have that impression.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: JoBert] #2799985
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Originally Posted by JoBert
...And regarding the "proper number of note off events for the matching note on events": In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs if the user does this restriking-without-damping multiple times, because you are under the wrong impression that note-on and note-off signals have to come in alternating order, ...

I think we are mixing two different discussions here. One thing is what the MIDI spec says about the note on/off events: the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note. Other thing is how specific implementations generate MIDI events, which mainly depends on the sensors equipping a device. For example, devices with note-off velocity sensing generate a note-off event with the corresponding release velocity. Devices with after-touch generate a stream of pressure events and may release the note by sending a note off event or may skip the off event altogether and just send a zero pressure after-touch event. Other devices will generate multiple on events and a single off event. We can make assumptions about how a MIDI processor/sequencer will interpret such event stream, but we will not get all the answers by looking at the spec...

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799988
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“the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note.”

I disagree on the first part. Read the specs : “If the transmitter were to send only one Note Off message, and if the receiver in fact assigned the two Note On messages to different voices, then one note would linger. Since there is no harm or negative side effect in sending redundant Note Off messages this is the recommended practice.”

The second part is OK. The specs propose alternative implementations : “It is up to the receiver as to whether the same voice or another voice will be sounded, or if the messages will be ignored.”


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2799991
01/09/19 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not sure who you refer to when you say "you".
Originally Posted by JoBert
In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs ...
I do not have that impression.

Did indeed mean you (MacMacMac) specifically, but as I said I wasn't sure if my impression was right. So it seems it wasn't. smile

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800014
01/09/19 08:13 AM
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MacMacMac, I've noticed you write a reply to someone and then you put the quote of what you're replying to. This is like sending a Note OFF message before a corresponding note ON first laugh


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: CyberGene] #2800015
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Yes, you're right.[note off]
Originally Posted by CyberGene
MacMacMac, I've noticed you write a reply to someone and then you put the quote of what you're replying to. This is like sending a Note OFF message before a corresponding note ON first laugh
[note on]
smile smile smile

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Frédéric L] #2800061
01/09/19 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
or (4) keep the previous note unaffected and "layer" the new note. Options 1, 2, 3 are possible implementations of the so-called Monophonic mode and can be found in sequencers and synths. Option 4 would require MultiTimbral or Poly mode and would require an OFF event for each ON event to work properly. However, none of this behaviour is part of the MIDI spec.

Everything in your post looks right to me, except I'm not sure about this last one. Even in Option 4, I think a device could be programmed such that a single OFF event would silence (or as you more accurately put it, begin the Release phase for) all previous remaining instances of ON for that note. So while there can be an additionally transmitted OFF event for an additional ON event, I don't think i is required.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are no true note-off messages here. That's just the way my piano works. And from what I read back in the day most others did likewise. After-touch (so-called) was not implemented.

You mean release velocity. Aftertouch is something entirely different.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's refreshing to see that some pianos have advanced and now send the formal note-off message.
I wonder whether this has trickled down to the lower-cost pianos?

As part of the spec, Note On with a velocity of zero has always been a perfectly acceptable defined alternative to Note Off, it's not some kind of more primitive version. However the Note Off command must be used if you want to specify a release velocity.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
“the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note.”

I disagree on the first part. Read the specs : “If the transmitter were to send only one Note Off message, and if the receiver in fact assigned the two Note On messages to different voices, then one note would linger. Since there is no harm or negative side effect in sending redundant Note Off messages this is the recommended practice.”

"Recommended practice" is not the same as required. So it would not be true that a board that does not do this is violating spec. Also, as alluded to earlier, that was written in the context of using a sequencer. There were no 3-sensor keyboards when those docs were written. Really, I don't think we can assume anything about current real-world implementation from that paragraph.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2800064
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Originally Posted by anotherscott

If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.


Here's a...ahem...photo of the screen from MIDI monitor (sorry, running a fully offline system for...reasons):
[Linked Image]

First is a single keypress and release, resulting in a single note-on and a single note-off.

Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800069
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.

Nice! Saves me the effort to get out MIDI Scope this evening. You haven't mentioned it, but I assume you measured your NV10?
So it seems I remembered that behavior correctly from my piano. smile
Although I can't test this anymore, I'm pretty sure my CA97 had the same behavior.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800078
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by anotherscott

If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.


Here's a...ahem...photo of the screen from MIDI monitor


Thank you! So now we've seen a model that works one way and one that works the other (from MacMacMac's post #2799920).

I wonder, if you played this sequence back into the piano, but removed the last three Note Off events, will the note still ring because some instances have not been silenced, or will the first Note Off silence the tone? I could imagine this could also be something that could vary on different implementations... and might affect whether something like Audetto's original plan could possibly work.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800081
01/09/19 10:51 AM
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This is just what I'm seeing ...
Originally Posted by anotherscott
If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing. I do NOT get the multiple note-off messages ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Here's a photo of the screen from MIDI monitor.[Linked Image]

First is a single keypress and release, resulting in a single note-on and a single note-off.

Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800094
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing. I do NOT get the multiple note-off messages ...


Mac, you have a relatively older model DP right? Though our sample size in this thread is small, my guess is that your DP isn't implementing some of the MIDI specs because it doesn't have any internal capabilities that make use of them (no triple sensor, no release samples, etc.) Over time, as these features were added and manufacturers have fielded inquiries and FRs for more advanced MIDI controller functionality, it's made sense to add the on-spec behavior. As anotherscott has mentioned, there's pretty much zero downside to adding the matching note-offs, even if they aren't useful for the primitive piano playing function.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800138
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing.

So now we know that both methods have been implemented.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800148
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Yes, it has three-sensor keys. That's why I can get repeated note-ons without a note-off (if I release a key partially).

But no, I don't think it has release samples.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800150
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, it has three-sensor keys. That's why I can get repeated note-ons without a note-off (if I release a key partially).


Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But if I raised the key only VERY slightly before pressing again, the result was note-on note-on note-on note-on note-on ... until I released and obtained note-off.


Thanks Mac, sorry I mistook the capabilities of your DP. I assumed you were getting some kind of Note-On Velocity 0/1 event when the bottom sensor of a 2-sensor strip was tripped, which would product no sound on the piano tone, but may be used for a non-dynamics tone such as harpsichord or organ.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800185
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Over time...it's made sense to add the on-spec behavior.

Both implementations meet spec. As I mentioned, the additional Note Offs are recommended, but not required.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I assumed you were getting some kind of Note-On Velocity 0/1 event when the bottom sensor of a 2-sensor strip was tripped, which would product no sound on the piano tone, but may be used for a non-dynamics tone such as harpsichord or organ.

Even a non-velocity-dependent sound needs to deal with Note On and Note Off just as velocity-sensing sounds do.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: arc7urus] #2800189
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

@audetto: I have not yet understood what you are trying to achieve ;-) Are you trying to layer multiple instances of the same note?


My goal is to achieve (via MIDI) some sort of super-legato / dynamic pedalling where each note is held down for a fixed period of time: 3 seconds.

Why? Just for a bit of fun. I've got other effects in mind, like echo, or a dynamic musical accompaniment.


If the same note is replayed in this interval, this is not well defined but I am happy to make up something reasonable.

Android allows me to schedule MIDI events in the future, so
- when I receive a Note ON I pass it immediately back to the piano and schedule a Note OFF at now() + 3 sec
- note OFF are ignored

This is simple as I do not have a scheduling problem, but really depends on this grey area of the MIDI spec.

As I said before, I will have to handle the scheduling issue and send a Note OFF back to the piano only if no other Note OFF for the same note are currently scheduled.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800206
01/09/19 04:13 PM
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If I understand your problem correctly, it has a very simple solution. You have to use a “semaphore”, i.e. a counter for each note that is initially zero. On each noteOn you increment it. On each scheduled noteOff you decrement and check if zero. Only when zero you send actual noteOff to MIDI. Otherwise it means there’s a newer noteOn that has overridden the previous one and so you have to turn off only the latest one.

void noteOnCallback(int note) {
counter[note]++;
sendMidiNoteOn(note);
scheduleNoteOff(note);
}

void noteOffCallback(int note) {
if —counter[note] == 0 sendMidiNoteOff(note);
}


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800213
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P.S. not sure if Android has it but the counter should be AtomicInt array and you should check its value with decrementAndGet to avoid threading issues since the scheduled calllback invocations will be performed in separate threads. Or at least use synchronized block which should certainly be available on Android.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2801168
01/12/19 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.


Same for a CA78.
There are many note offs when the key is finally released fully.


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