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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2799907
01/08/19 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[My guess is that the MIDI spec for Note-On and Note-Off is not limited to pianos?

Correct, there's no separate MIDI spec for pianos.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Anyways, I figure most DPs behave this way in order to adhere to the spec, not because they believe it absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of the piano tone.

Are you assuming most DPs send multiple Note Off commands if need be to correspond to the number of Note On commands that were sent (i.e. in the 3-sensor scenario we've been discussing)? I do not believe that to be the case. As I mentioned, I'd be curious to see if anyone here has a DP where they could play it into a MIDI Monitor or sequencer, and see numerous Note Offs generated from a single Note Off key release, in order to "balance out" numerous consecutive low-sensor Note On events. I would be surprised to see that.

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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799920
01/09/19 12:01 AM
01/09/19 12:01 AM
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Ok, I did that, and ...

First: My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)

I played a note repeatedly, raising the key substantially each time. The result was note-on note-off note-on note-off note-on note-off. As expected.

But if I raised the key only VERY slightly before pressing again, the result was note-on note-on note-on note-on note-on ... until I released and obtained note-off.
This is as expected. More note-ons than note-offs.

Is that a violation of the spec?
Who cares? It's necessary for repetition on the piano.

If you don't raise the key very much between presses you don't want the note to be damped by a note-off.
The above MIDI behavior properly produces this result.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2799961
01/09/19 04:41 AM
01/09/19 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)

That's a bold assumption (that most pianos behave this way). wink
I don't think it's correct. Because at least those pianos that want to transmit a release velocity will have to send a proper note off event (with that velocity). I know that the NV10 does this (although it always sends a constant release velocity), and the CA models send note off with release velocity too, AFAIK. The CLP6x5 series also sends note off with velocity (according to the specs PDF) and I would be surprised if other models (and from Roland) did not too. People expect it these days, so that their expensive VSTs can properly trigger their release samples.

And regarding the "proper number of note off events for the matching note on events": In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs if the user does this restriking-without-damping multiple times, because you are under the wrong impression that note-on and note-off signals have to come in alternating order, i.e. that before a new note-on can be sent, first a note-off must be sent. I.e. you seem to assume that it would require a sequence like this:

Strike the key the 1st time: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note off + Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note off + Note on
Release key: Note off

(Which would indeed not be the proper behavior for a piano.)

Not sure if that was indeed your assumption or if I just misinterpreted your posts, but anyway, that message order is not required. AFAIK, the following sequence would also be legal in the MIDI standard (that's the sequence anotherscott was talking about):

Strike the key the 1st time: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note on
Re-strike without releasing: Note on
Release key: 3x Note off

Originally Posted by anotherscott
As I mentioned, I'd be curious to see if anyone here has a DP where they could play it into a MIDI Monitor or sequencer, and see numerous Note Offs generated from a single Note Off key release, in order to "balance out" numerous consecutive low-sensor Note On events. I would be surprised to see that.

I thought I had a vague recollection that is was exactly what my NV10 does, but I'm not sure if maybe in my memory I'm confusing this with multiple different notes being played. I'll check again later today and get back to you.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799972
01/09/19 06:23 AM
01/09/19 06:23 AM
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The MIDI spec is tightly connected to how a digital sequencer works. Trying to relate MIDI events with sensors and note repetition on a digital piano only introduces unnecessary confusion IMO.

Going back to MIDI and the spec...
  • There can be multiple ON events for the same note without a corresponding OFF event. This is valid as per the MIDI spec. Some implementations may generate an OFF event for each ON event in some situations, but this behaviour cannot be generalized and actually depends on what wants to be achieved. In any case, the spec places no restrictions on the order of these events.
  • An OFF event will release a note (on a specific channel) irrespective of how many ON events precede it.
  • An OFF event will not "stop" the sound of the note. Instead, it will initiate the Release phase of that note.
  • The ON and OFF events control the ADSR envelope on the sequencer. Note ON starts the Attack phase (which is followed by the Decay and Sustain phases) and note OFF starts the Release phase.
  • The Release will be postponed in case there is an active "Hold Pedal" control event. Other MIDI Control Change events also change how the envelope is processed and sound is produced and may override the default behaviour of the note ON/OFF events. Some of this behaviour is not in the spec but is device/implementation dependent.
  • The sound of an active (ON) note can also be dynamically modified using After Touch and Channel Pressure events.
  • The MIDI spec does not specify what happens if a note ON event is received for a note that is still active and that has not yet been released. There are many options and they are device dependent. For example, a device may opt to (1) completely cut-off the previous note (without releasing it) and retrigger the new note, (2) release and retrigger the note (i.e. start the Release phase of the previous note while simultaneously retriggering the new note from the start f the Attack phase), (3) produce a specific transition between the new note and previous note using alternative Release and Attack phases (this option is often implemented to simulate monophonic woodwind and brass instruments and some string instruments) or (4) keep the previous note unaffected and "layer" the new note. Options 1, 2, 3 are possible implementations of the so-called Monophonic mode and can be found in sequencers and synths. Option 4 would require MultiTimbral or Poly mode and would require an OFF event for each ON event to work properly. However, none of this behaviour is part of the MIDI spec.


@audetto: I have not yet understood what you are trying to achieve ;-) Are you trying to layer multiple instances of the same note?

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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799975
01/09/19 06:59 AM
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There are no true note-off messages here. That's just the way my piano works. And from what I read back in the day most others did likewise. After-touch (so-called) was not implemented.
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My piano does not generate note-off events. Rather, it generates note-on with velocity zero, which is equivalent to note-off. So I'll refer to that as note-off. (I think most pianos behave this way.)
That's a bold assumption (that most pianos behave this way).
I don't think it's correct. Because at least those pianos that want to transmit a release velocity will have to send a proper note off event (with that velocity).
It's refreshing to see that some pianos have advanced and now send the formal note-off message.
I wonder whether this has trickled down to the lower-cost pianos?

I'm not sure who you refer to when you say "you".
Originally Posted by JoBert
In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs ...
I do not have that impression.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: JoBert] #2799985
01/09/19 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
...And regarding the "proper number of note off events for the matching note on events": In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs if the user does this restriking-without-damping multiple times, because you are under the wrong impression that note-on and note-off signals have to come in alternating order, ...

I think we are mixing two different discussions here. One thing is what the MIDI spec says about the note on/off events: the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note. Other thing is how specific implementations generate MIDI events, which mainly depends on the sensors equipping a device. For example, devices with note-off velocity sensing generate a note-off event with the corresponding release velocity. Devices with after-touch generate a stream of pressure events and may release the note by sending a note off event or may skip the off event altogether and just send a zero pressure after-touch event. Other devices will generate multiple on events and a single off event. We can make assumptions about how a MIDI processor/sequencer will interpret such event stream, but we will not get all the answers by looking at the spec...

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2799988
01/09/19 08:00 AM
01/09/19 08:00 AM
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“the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note.”

I disagree on the first part. Read the specs : “If the transmitter were to send only one Note Off message, and if the receiver in fact assigned the two Note On messages to different voices, then one note would linger. Since there is no harm or negative side effect in sending redundant Note Off messages this is the recommended practice.”

The second part is OK. The specs propose alternative implementations : “It is up to the receiver as to whether the same voice or another voice will be sounded, or if the messages will be ignored.”


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2799991
01/09/19 08:23 AM
01/09/19 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not sure who you refer to when you say "you".
Originally Posted by JoBert
In the discussion above I get the impression that you argue, that a piano cannot send a matching number of note-on/note-off pairs ...
I do not have that impression.

Did indeed mean you (MacMacMac) specifically, but as I said I wasn't sure if my impression was right. So it seems it wasn't. smile

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800014
01/09/19 09:13 AM
01/09/19 09:13 AM
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MacMacMac, I've noticed you write a reply to someone and then you put the quote of what you're replying to. This is like sending a Note OFF message before a corresponding note ON first laugh


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: CyberGene] #2800015
01/09/19 09:24 AM
01/09/19 09:24 AM
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Yes, you're right.[note off]
Originally Posted by CyberGene
MacMacMac, I've noticed you write a reply to someone and then you put the quote of what you're replying to. This is like sending a Note OFF message before a corresponding note ON first laugh
[note on]
smile smile smile

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Frédéric L] #2800061
01/09/19 10:59 AM
01/09/19 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
or (4) keep the previous note unaffected and "layer" the new note. Options 1, 2, 3 are possible implementations of the so-called Monophonic mode and can be found in sequencers and synths. Option 4 would require MultiTimbral or Poly mode and would require an OFF event for each ON event to work properly. However, none of this behaviour is part of the MIDI spec.

Everything in your post looks right to me, except I'm not sure about this last one. Even in Option 4, I think a device could be programmed such that a single OFF event would silence (or as you more accurately put it, begin the Release phase for) all previous remaining instances of ON for that note. So while there can be an additionally transmitted OFF event for an additional ON event, I don't think i is required.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are no true note-off messages here. That's just the way my piano works. And from what I read back in the day most others did likewise. After-touch (so-called) was not implemented.

You mean release velocity. Aftertouch is something entirely different.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's refreshing to see that some pianos have advanced and now send the formal note-off message.
I wonder whether this has trickled down to the lower-cost pianos?

As part of the spec, Note On with a velocity of zero has always been a perfectly acceptable defined alternative to Note Off, it's not some kind of more primitive version. However the Note Off command must be used if you want to specify a release velocity.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
“the spec does not say that there shall be an OFF event for each ON event and does not say how to process multiple ON events for the active same note.”

I disagree on the first part. Read the specs : “If the transmitter were to send only one Note Off message, and if the receiver in fact assigned the two Note On messages to different voices, then one note would linger. Since there is no harm or negative side effect in sending redundant Note Off messages this is the recommended practice.”

"Recommended practice" is not the same as required. So it would not be true that a board that does not do this is violating spec. Also, as alluded to earlier, that was written in the context of using a sequencer. There were no 3-sensor keyboards when those docs were written. Really, I don't think we can assume anything about current real-world implementation from that paragraph.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: anotherscott] #2800064
01/09/19 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott

If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.


Here's a...ahem...photo of the screen from MIDI monitor (sorry, running a fully offline system for...reasons):
[Linked Image]

First is a single keypress and release, resulting in a single note-on and a single note-off.

Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800069
01/09/19 11:12 AM
01/09/19 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.

Nice! Saves me the effort to get out MIDI Scope this evening. You haven't mentioned it, but I assume you measured your NV10?
So it seems I remembered that behavior correctly from my piano. smile
Although I can't test this anymore, I'm pretty sure my CA97 had the same behavior.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800078
01/09/19 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by anotherscott

If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.


Here's a...ahem...photo of the screen from MIDI monitor


Thank you! So now we've seen a model that works one way and one that works the other (from MacMacMac's post #2799920).

I wonder, if you played this sequence back into the piano, but removed the last three Note Off events, will the note still ring because some instances have not been silenced, or will the first Note Off silence the tone? I could imagine this could also be something that could vary on different implementations... and might affect whether something like Audetto's original plan could possibly work.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800081
01/09/19 11:51 AM
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This is just what I'm seeing ...
Originally Posted by anotherscott
If you put a MIDI monitor app on the MIDI out of a 3-sensor piano (or record it into a sequencer), and generate 20 Note-On events from a single key without ever releasing the key high enough to send a Note Off, and then release the key, if you look at the MIDI stream, I'm quite sure you'd see 20 Note On events and a single Note Off event (not 20 Note Off events in rapid succession upon key release). If anyone tries this and sees otherwise, I'd be curious to know about it.

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing. I do NOT get the multiple note-off messages ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Here's a photo of the screen from MIDI monitor.[Linked Image]

First is a single keypress and release, resulting in a single note-on and a single note-off.

Second is a keypress, followed by a typically triple-sensor-like repeition without fully releasing the key. Four sequential note-on events, with the key release resulting in four near-instantaneous, queued note-offs.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800094
01/09/19 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing. I do NOT get the multiple note-off messages ...


Mac, you have a relatively older model DP right? Though our sample size in this thread is small, my guess is that your DP isn't implementing some of the MIDI specs because it doesn't have any internal capabilities that make use of them (no triple sensor, no release samples, etc.) Over time, as these features were added and manufacturers have fielded inquiries and FRs for more advanced MIDI controller functionality, it's made sense to add the on-spec behavior. As anotherscott has mentioned, there's pretty much zero downside to adding the matching note-offs, even if they aren't useful for the primitive piano playing function.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800138
01/09/19 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

This is the opposite of what I'm seeing.

So now we know that both methods have been implemented.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Audetto] #2800148
01/09/19 02:48 PM
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Yes, it has three-sensor keys. That's why I can get repeated note-ons without a note-off (if I release a key partially).

But no, I don't think it has release samples.

Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: MacMacMac] #2800150
01/09/19 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, it has three-sensor keys. That's why I can get repeated note-ons without a note-off (if I release a key partially).


Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But if I raised the key only VERY slightly before pressing again, the result was note-on note-on note-on note-on note-on ... until I released and obtained note-off.


Thanks Mac, sorry I mistook the capabilities of your DP. I assumed you were getting some kind of Note-On Velocity 0/1 event when the bottom sensor of a 2-sensor strip was tripped, which would product no sound on the piano tone, but may be used for a non-dynamics tone such as harpsichord or organ.


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Re: Multiple MIDI On question [Re: Gombessa] #2800185
01/09/19 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Over time...it's made sense to add the on-spec behavior.

Both implementations meet spec. As I mentioned, the additional Note Offs are recommended, but not required.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I assumed you were getting some kind of Note-On Velocity 0/1 event when the bottom sensor of a 2-sensor strip was tripped, which would product no sound on the piano tone, but may be used for a non-dynamics tone such as harpsichord or organ.

Even a non-velocity-dependent sound needs to deal with Note On and Note Off just as velocity-sensing sounds do.

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