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Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799135
01/06/19 03:28 PM
01/06/19 03:28 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Not sure you got exactly what I mean. The issue is very complex and not easily reproducible. Hence it’s very difficult to modify your technique to avoid the issue unless you entirely eradicate (quiet) repetition and trills. It’s certainly not a problem of technique. It’s an unfortunate hiccup in upright action design and people are OK to live with that taking into account how much more compact and less expensive an upright is compared to a grand. And then comes one of the more expensive digitals that is suffering from a defect which isn’t even there in digital pianos costing just hundreds. We all know what the advantages of NU1X over other digital pianos is however there’s still a lot to explain to the modern piano buyer who’s unaware of the original problem, the inability of the company to solve it within a rather premium price segment offering and especially of having to accept it’s buyers technique that is to blame smile


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799137
01/06/19 03:51 PM
01/06/19 03:51 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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So, let’s get this straight. You play a piece and you see a pianissimo trill. You know that in 99% of the time it will come out OK on the NU1X. But there’s still a low chance of an occasional loud note. How do you change your technique? I don’t get it. You replace it with a fortissimo trill? Is there an alternate way of playing a pianissimo trill that’s 100% issue free? You choose another piece?


My Soundcloud, My YouTube
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: CyberGene] #2799147
01/06/19 04:08 PM
01/06/19 04:08 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, let’s get this straight. You play a piece and you see a pianissimo trill. You know that in 99% of the time it will come out OK on the NU1X. But there’s still a low chance of an occasional loud note. How do you change your technique? I don’t get it. You replace it with a fortissimo trill? Is there an alternate way of playing a pianissimo trill that’s 100% issue free? You choose another piece?

it seems that JoBert and Gombessa might be saying that if you buy an upright, you are limited by the actions of those pianos. You either adapt to the action or you don't play a piece. For example, based on the videos I've seen, it is not clear to me it would be possible to play Ravel's Ondine at all, at least not with the same tempo and level of dynamics called for, on any piano with an upright action or simulating such an action. Similarly, for a digital, including a defective one, you are limited by the hardware and either adapt to it or simply avoid certain pieces that can't be played correctly with it. And if you don't like this, there is always a real AP or a hybrid grand like the NV10 you can buy and play instead.

At least that what I took away from the remarks of JoBert and Gombessa, and I actually agree with the above.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799163
01/06/19 04:52 PM
01/06/19 04:52 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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I see where the misunderstanding comes from. I still believe you are wrong, so let me explain. It's funny because I was gonna use Ondine in my previous post to support what I'm saying smile

You make a wrong assumption regarding the nature of the upright action "jamming". But before explaining it, let's see the Ondine example.

So, Ondine starts with fast ppp repetitions. In order to be able to play very fast and very quiet, you have to play near the bottom of the key travel. If you release fully, you prolong the time required for the key to be released and then to be pressed slowly (otherwise it will come out louder due to the higher velocity) and so on an upright action you can't play this properly because it lacks a double repetition lever. (There are expensive upright actions with mechanical solutions to overcome that though but that's not the point here). In other words, Ondine is almost 100% non-doable on an upright. You, as a pianist know it. You can try to play it and you will end up with a lot of silent notes. It's your responsibility to realize that.

Now, it's very important to understand the Yamaha NU1X issues has nothing to do with the above scenario. On a NU1X tested many times by me in a store, if you don't release the keys fully and press again, it will be silent. There's no loud note! So, it's not how the issue is reproduced.

The issue is a very rare but still occurring phenomena which I can't explain and can't reproduce on command, where the jack is probably jammed and even if you think everything is OK, the key suddenly feels light, it bottoms out very quickly because there's no weight to push and on a real upright there's no note, whereas on NU1X the sensors are fooled and produce high velocity. I guess it depends on regulation, on micro-rebounds of the jack, jack spring self-frequency oscillation or who knows what. But it's entirely unpredictable! Hence it's not your technique. It's a random issue.

So, the problem of who's to blame isn't that simple. People used to know if they want a great keyboard, fast repetitions and no jamming, go for a grand piano. Costs between a used car and a brand new house smile And then at the bottom are cheap uprights, action might jam but that's it.

And then we fast forward to present days where you enter the digital piano showroom and see digital pianos that cost between $500 and $5000 and suddenly there's this particular issue that's on that most expensive digital piano smile A lot ot explain to the customer, right?


My Soundcloud, My YouTube
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
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Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799214
01/06/19 08:30 PM
01/06/19 08:30 PM
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Hobart, Australia
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I learned to play Ondine pretty well on my Yamaha upright. It requires some different pedalling (constant half and flutter), plus holding down the soft pedal brings the hammers closer to the strings and makes it easier to play ppp without missed notes. I can play it on most pianos - but certainly when I first played it on a grand , I was shocked at how effortless it was compared to the upright action. I have no doubt however that playing difficult pieces on upright pianos has helped me to build my technique. Which seems to be at odds with what most people here think - the prevailing view being that upright actions are too easy to play (not including repetition there., and therefore don't prepare you well for playing a grand. I found it did - and I can probably play an upright action better than most people who only play grand actions!

Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799342
01/07/19 11:51 AM
01/07/19 11:51 AM
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Liverpool, NY
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I love my NU1X. For me, it was an instant "I am buying this" moment. I do get the occasional "loud" note, but my enjoyment far outweighs this minor annoyance. The sound of the CFX grand is wonderful, and the action just makes me want to play more.

It might not be a good fit for some, but it sure is for me.

Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799357
01/07/19 12:43 PM
01/07/19 12:43 PM
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Germany
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Same here. It's a beauty beast.


Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Lite & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799361
01/07/19 12:57 PM
01/07/19 12:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,932
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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As I've said previously, I was (and probably still am) in love with NU1 initially. The feel, the control and the touch to sound connection are great. I am still thinking that maybe I could eventually live with the occasional loud note issue and probably should buy a NU1X anyway. And I go to play it in the store and hit the issue and become very disappointed frown I am very OCD-driven for many things, unfortunately.


My Soundcloud, My YouTube
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: CyberGene] #2799362
01/07/19 01:04 PM
01/07/19 01:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I am still thinking that maybe I could eventually live with the occasional loud note issue and probably should buy a NU1X anyway. And I go to play it in the store and hit the issue and become very disappointed frown I am very OCD-driven for many things, unfortunately.

For real OCD people, just the thought I might encounter this issue already adds to the anxiety which owning a nice instrument should actually be countering for me! smile Ultimately, I need a piano that soothes me and not one that makes me anxiously await the appearance of The Defect wink LOL


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799406
01/07/19 03:24 PM
01/07/19 03:24 PM
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UK
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Seems to me neither of you, Cyber or Tyrone, could possibly enjoy an acoustic then crazy

As previously stated I’m a happy NU1 owner, 5+ years, only GAS is for the theoretical and keenly priced N2X.

Last edited by spanishbuddha; 01/07/19 03:24 PM.
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799447
01/07/19 05:40 PM
01/07/19 05:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 650
Southern California
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Originally Posted by Eienkei

Should I get one of these or am I better of start learning with something cheaper? I am an adult learner in early 30s. Not sure if it's too late to learn now...


Eienkei, I don’t know if your question was answered. You said you are a beginner. So either of these two Yamaha’s, or a Kawai CN, CA, CS, series will be good for several years. I suggest you listen to JoBerts YouTube recordings. Most of them are on a CA97. The two Yamahas you mention are about the same in price and quality. When you can play like that then you may feel you need to upgrade. But it will not be necessary to do so. When you play them in the store. You will fall in love with one of them. Go with your heart (gut) or you will regret not getting the one you loved because of a “defect” you read about. By the time you experience a “loud note” issue on the NU1, you be very advanced and there will be other pianos to consider at the time.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799628
01/08/19 07:40 AM
01/08/19 07:40 AM
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Posts: 2,932
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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I used my lunch break today to go to the nearby Yamaha dealership and test various digital pianos. I concentrated mainly on P-515 and again on CLP-645 and CLP-675 (but not 685 which isn't displayed, however I've played it before).

What can I say, I can't connect to either keyboard although I spent about an hour and already started adapting but it's a keyboard feel I can't live with. This weird initial key resistance is a no-go for me. As I previously said, the NWX in P-515 and CLP-645 is actually slightly better in that respect compared to the more expensive GrandTouch action in CLP-675. Besides, the CFX sound didn't convince me on either the P-515 or CLP-675. And the Bösendorfer is a joke. It's too dark and muffled I couldn't find any real usage for it. So, I was rather disappointed.

There was a NU1 (not the X) sitting there. So beautiful and elegant! And I tested it first switched off. Oddly enough the keyboard feel when switched off is very similar to NWX. However once switched on it is entirely different! It is a night and day difference. You can feel the free flowing hammers under your fingers and it makes the resistance meaningful in contrast to the constant "non-detachable" resistance of the NWX. This NU1, such a joy to play, so realistic! It's light years ahead as both keyboard feel and sound through speakers compared to the Clavinova pianos and the P-515! It feels like a real piano, it's a real instrument that I simply melted down on! I love it, I can't say anything more. Please, anyone talk me our of ordering NU1X laugh

That being said, I spent considerable time analyzing how to reproduce the loud note issue and I can do that now 100% in a matter of 30 seconds. Just playing soft consecutive trills such as the ones in the middle of Chopin Nocturne op.62, No.1. Yet, I will admit it isn't so bad smile And it didn't feel unnatural to me in a way I have described it before. I believe for some reason the hammer is not "jammed" but rather bounces off and so you feel that under your fingers and it naturally leads to much less effort needed to throw it since it already has the inertia and generates a louder note. Well, maybe my mind is blurred by the otherwise great instrument and I am ready to forgive that issue but if you ask me right now: it's 100% reproducible yet is not such a big deal smile I'm wondering whether that could have been softened out in the newer NU1X due to a higher spec CPU? But even if not, I'm still so much in love with it! I'm about to reconsider it again and purchase it laugh

BTW, at the end of my visit I played again a Dexibell H7 which is so heavily discounted (floor model for €1250). With a very old OS, no platinum sounds. It is in some respects a good instrument, better than P-515 for instance, and at the same time feels like not very well finished, for instance the highest notes reacted too much to even slightest touch which is not very realistic...

Anyway, I am in love with NU1 and to answer the original thread: I would chose it night and day over a CLP-685/675.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/08/19 07:47 AM.

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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799633
01/08/19 08:08 AM
01/08/19 08:08 AM
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Keep in mind that the speaker specs on the CLP-675 are “better” than those of the NU1/X, yet several people, including CyberGene, prefer the sound of the NU1/X.

Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799635
01/08/19 08:17 AM
01/08/19 08:17 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Indeed, NU1 was the only digital piano that I played today, that sounded almost as a real instrument through its speakers. The combination of great touch and sound leaves the impression of a real music instrument, whereas the Clavinova pianos felt like audio products.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/08/19 08:17 AM.

My Soundcloud, My YouTube
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Pete14] #2799637
01/08/19 08:23 AM
01/08/19 08:23 AM
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Tyr Offline
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Keep in mind that the speaker specs on the CLP-675 are “better” than those of the NU1/X, yet several people, including CyberGene, prefer the sound of the NU1/X.


The problem lies here, that adding watts together doesn't say anything about the sound quality or amps. The CLP-685 has "300W" but sound rather cheap because the watts are spreaded over 6 speakers. Idk what kind of amps or speakers are in the NU1X but the sound production quality is miles ahead compared to the CLPs. The Bösendorfer on the NU1X sounds way better btw.

Last edited by Tyr; 01/08/19 08:25 AM.

Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Lite & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799652
01/08/19 08:52 AM
01/08/19 08:52 AM
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On a related note, does anyone know of line-out recordings of classical music using the Bösendorfer sound, on Youtube or similar places? Mostly videos showcasing Yamaha instruments feature some sort of new age muzak.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.4 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799655
01/08/19 08:55 AM
01/08/19 08:55 AM
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And on another related note, I just checked that there's a firmware 2.0 for NU1X which makes it work as an audio interface. That makes it almost a decided purchase for me and I have a buyer for my ES7 that's put on hold before I make my mind smile


My Soundcloud, My YouTube
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Pete14] #2799656
01/08/19 09:01 AM
01/08/19 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Keep in mind that the speaker specs on the CLP-675 are “better” than those of the NU1/X, yet several people, including CyberGene, prefer the sound of the NU1/X.


Count me in that group. It took me awhile to reconcile that on paper the CLP-685 had better specs than the NU1X when it came to sound but the when you actually played them side by side the there was no comparison, the NU1X is far better. To CyberGene if you have the opportunity play them with a good set of headphones. The CFX voice on the NU1X with Binarual sampling is incredible. That is about as close as I have been with DP to feeling like you are at an acoustic piano.


Yamaha NU1X
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: CyberGene] #2799661
01/08/19 09:20 AM
01/08/19 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
That makes it almost a decided purchase for me and I have a buyer for my ES7 that's put on hold before I make my mind smile


I understand if you might be holding off on a grand hybrid because of your massive DIY project, but if you liked the NU1 so much, you may want to spend some time on an N1/N2 (especially if you believe an N1X may be coming soon) before committing to an upright purchase? IME the AvantGrand actions feel very much like the NU1 (slightly stiffer, slightly shorter key throw than their acoustic grands) and of course won't have the loud note issue at all.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Help me choose between Yamaha CLP-685 and NUX1 [Re: Eienkei] #2799663
01/08/19 09:22 AM
01/08/19 09:22 AM
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So, yet again ... specs don't matter, right? Trust your fingers and ears!

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