2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
41 members (amyram, astrotoy, BlairScotland, Beowulf, almo82, Bett, 36251, Back Room Studio, 9 invisible), 387 guests, and 442 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
#2795458 12/26/18 02:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
N
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
Has anyone tried the K-300 or K-500 AURES yet? What were your impressions?

Is the K-300 AURES digital sound a step up from the CA98 or Novus NV10?

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2795480 12/26/18 04:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
I have no experience with them but from all I read, the answer to the second question is no. The Aures system seems to have the same sound engine as the CA78/CA98/NV10. I think even the same touch screen UI.

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
JoBert #2795509 12/26/18 05:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
N
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
The sound engine and UI may be the same but the amplification/speaker/soundboard systems aren't the same across CA98, NV10, and AURES. No one claims that the CA98 and NV10 sound the same, for example. Sorry for not clarifying my question!

In addition to that, AURES uses the actual piano strings for resonance. I'm not sure if AURES disables the resonance modelling entirely in favor of the physical strings, but the piano string resonance against the digital sound is marvelous.

Thanks!

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2795518 12/26/18 05:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
I see, so you wanted to know if the digital sound sounds better if played via the Aures soundboard in comparison to the CA/NV speakers/soundboard (as applicable), not if the engine itself is a "step up". Sorry, I can't help with that.

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
JoBert #2796000 12/28/18 05:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 62
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 62
Hi navindra,

I've tested Kawai K-300 Aures, and Yamaha YUS1 Transacoustic TA2.
For both of them, the sound reproduction is very different from the DP equivalent (I mean DP with same sound engine) : CA/NV or Clavinova, at the same time worse and better :

1) It is worse if you only consider the pure sound wave : it is less precise than a loudspeaker reproduction, because the sound board is not a loudspeaker, and the signal sent through it is the exact signal that sound engine would send to speaker in a DP. For TA2, the string resonnance is desactivated (I suppose that Aures does the same).
But, in fact, as discussed in another thread, it is not the best idea to send to the sound board a signal captured by a microphone, which come through the air, and emitted by a real piano soundboard ... it is like a strange loop.
Ideally, Aures and TA2 should send to the soundboard a special signal made specially for it, for example the signal captured directly from the real piano soundboard ...
For instance, the Bosendorfer sound in TA2 is awful when used with soundboard, but it is very pleasing when used with headphone.
That is my explication to explain why the sound is not as 'pure' as in a DP with speaker.

2) But their sound is much better if you consider the sound 'reproduction', the spatialization, the vibrations, etc. The 'sound feeling' is more natural : you have the impression that is is the whole piano that emit the sound, and for me, it is more pleasing to play.

I finally bought Yamaha Transacoustic without any hesitation.
The Aures sound was less pleasing for me, less vibrant, less present, despite the use of 4 transducers (TA2 only uses 2 transducers)
As concern the real piano sound, the K-300 was also less vibrant, less present than the YUS1. But the price is not the same too ... (YUS1 is in the upper range of Yamaha upright piano)
It is my opinion, my taste, and other people may think differently : so I strongly suggest that you try both models.

Olivier


Yamaha YUS1 Transacoustic TA2
Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2796019 12/28/18 07:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,045
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,045
Olivier, thanks for your perspective.
For me, it’s all about the spatial (wide) and resonant phenomena. The overall fidelity doesn’t matter so much.

Have you noticed a significant difference in feel/touch when switching between acoustic/silent mode?
I believe Yamaha’s upright hybrids do not use the “QuickEscape” mechanism, and I wonder how much of a difference this makes.

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
Pete14 #2796048 12/28/18 09:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 62
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 62
I've not noticed a difference in the touch, maybe I'm not good enough in piano to notice it. I think that there should be a difference : in upright piano, when swithching to TA mode, there is something that blocks the hammers so that they go at 1-2 mm max away from the strings. It is subtle but maybe a good pianist could tell the difference. I don't know how the quick escape is working on grand piano.

On this point, it reminds me that Kawai aures doesn't have the "repetition note bug" (like NUX1) : I think that the sensors are on the hammers and not on the keys like Yamaha does on upright piano. With Aures, when you press again a half-released key, you don't hear anything, like in a real upright piano.
That's a big advantage for the Kawai over Yamaha.


Yamaha YUS1 Transacoustic TA2
Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2796101 12/28/18 11:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,487
Originally Posted by olivier du nord
I've not noticed a difference in the touch, maybe I'm not good enough in piano to notice it. I think that there should be a difference : in upright piano, when swithching to TA mode, there is something that blocks the hammers so that they go at 1-2 mm max away from the strings.

That's a common misconception of how the silent system on an upright works, that you would notice a difference between silent and acoustic mode. In fact you don't (except for the differences that arise out of the fact that in one case the tone is generated by hammers on strings, in the other case by a digital engine).
A silent system in an upright *does* impact the regulation (in a negative way, strictly speaking), but the difference can not be felt when comparing the same piano in acoustic mode or with silent system engaged. The feel will be more or less the same in both cases.
The difference can be felt when comparing an acoustic upright with a silent system installed to a second piano of the same model, that does not have a silent system (where both pianos are well regulated).
Usually, the one without a silent system should be much easier to control when playing pp than the one with a silent system. The reason for this is, that a piano technician usually tries to regulate the let off to happen as late as possible, with the hammer as close as possible to the strings (usually at a distance of 1-2mm from the strings). But with the silent system, the let off must be regulated to happen much earlier, or otherwise the hammers would block against the stop bar. This usually results in a distance of 6-10mm. So instead of an optimal regulation with 1-2mm distance, you now have a distance of 6-10mm. And this distance is fixed. The let off will always happen at this suboptimal distance, no matter if the silent system is engaged or not (after all, you do not have a technician adjusting the let off each time you engage or disengage the silent system). So the negative effect on the action is "baked in" as soon as the silent system is installed and affects it both in acoustic and silent mode.

BTW, my source is this video (in German) which has nice animations explaining the topic: https://youtu.be/aFaQLqOc61U

Originally Posted by olivier du nord
I don't know how the quick escape is working on grand piano.

Many silent systems on grands have the same problem as described above, i.e. that the regulation must be changed because of the mere presence of the stop bar (no matter if engaged or not). The systems with a quick escape counter this so that with the silent system engaged, the let off happens earlier. That way, the let off (with the normal escape) can be regulated for optimal distance in acoustic mode, when the stop bar is retracted. And in digital mode, with the stop bar in place, the quick escape causes an earlier let off, so that the hammers don't block against the stop bar. AFAIK, there's no such quick escape system for uprights yet (and not even for all grands).

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
olivier du nord #2796350 12/28/18 11:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
N
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
Merci Olivier! That's very useful information indeed.

I got a chance to try the Yamaha U1 TA2 this weekend and it was not too bad at all. I agree with you on the sound via soundboard vs headphones. I remember being blown away by the Yamaha binaural samples on headphones but not so much via soundboard.

I was not able to try the AURES. I think overall I prefer the Kawai acoustic tone, and I was leaning towards a K-500. Although with your recommendation, I think I will now take another look at TA2 since I can't playtest AURES.

Unfortunately, Kawai US missed the boat on K-500 AURES and didn't order any from Japan. I'm trying to see if they can special order one for me.

Kawai James, maybe you could ship me a K-500 AURES? Kawai should be a global company! smile

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2796416 12/29/18 08:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,045
P
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,045
If you don’t like the TA2’s internal sound you can run a VST using its on-board audio interface. This can also be done with the Aures; however, you will need to use the line-in because the Aures does not have an audio interface. I believe that a built-in audio interface is better in every way for this purpose; including the fact that only one cable (usb to host) is needed.

Re: Kawai K-300 or K-500 AURES hands-on?
navindra #2796659 12/30/18 02:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
N
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 764
I had the guy at the shop demo the TA2 acoustic sound vs the digital sound. The digital CFX (with acoustic resonance?) sounds absolutely marvelous in the hands of a master... guy made it sing in a way that surpassed the acoustic sound.

Also from trying various uprights, I'm coming to the realization that the CA98 sounds absurdly good in comparison. A lot of the uprights sound relatively bad but I'm just a beginner so I don't exactly know how to wrestle the best tone out of a real piano.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Help deciding on a tablet for a new Yamaha CLP
by GreatShowmanChopin - 09/25/20 09:32 PM
Do most people like warm and soft tone?
by tony3304 - 09/25/20 09:09 PM
Has Rolands V Piano modelling improved in the last 10 years?
by MelodicRevengexX - 09/25/20 07:37 PM
Are you allowed to advertise here?
by Learux - 09/25/20 06:31 PM
Schimmel K122 vs. Grand piano?
by alikat1234 - 09/25/20 05:37 PM
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics201,823
Posts3,006,915
Members98,665
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4