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MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? #2795001
12/24/18 10:08 PM
12/24/18 10:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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I've been grand shopping for years, lol, and have never been able to get a dealer's price anywhere near what should be relatively reasonable, taking Fine's general guidelines into consideration. How common is it for dealers to refuse to go below about 15% of the SMP? Just a month ago, one gave me a price barely 5% below MSRP, and was fine when I walked away. What gives?


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
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Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795007
12/24/18 10:36 PM
12/24/18 10:36 PM
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MarkL Offline
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I paid 37% less than MSRP last summer for my GL-10, for whatever that's worth. I have no idea how much prices vary by area. You live near some pretty built up areas, maybe you can drive a bit and check with another dealer.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795008
12/24/18 10:44 PM
12/24/18 10:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Thanks for your input! Dealers are few and far between here and usually involves going out of state. Then major delivery charges come into play. No wonder I'm frustrated!


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: MarkL] #2795071
12/25/18 08:57 AM
12/25/18 08:57 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,792
New York City
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Originally Posted by MarkL
I paid 37% less than MSRP last summer for my GL-10, for whatever that's worth. I have no idea how much prices vary by area. You live near some pretty built up areas, maybe you can drive a bit and check with another dealer.
Fine explains why it's only the discount from SMP that's meaningful. The MSRP is completely arbitrary and makers sometimes use inflated MSRPs so buyers think they are getting a big discount/better deal.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795081
12/25/18 10:24 AM
12/25/18 10:24 AM
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Get one a couple years old. They really depreciate fast. About like a car.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: pianoloverus] #2795099
12/25/18 11:30 AM
12/25/18 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by MarkL
I paid 37% less than MSRP last summer for my GL-10, for whatever that's worth. I have no idea how much prices vary by area. You live near some pretty built up areas, maybe you can drive a bit and check with another dealer.
Fine explains why it's only the discount from SMP that's meaningful. The MSRP is completely arbitrary and makers sometimes use inflated MSRPs so buyers think they are getting a big discount/better deal.

I paid 36% less than the SMP.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: oldMH] #2795109
12/25/18 12:16 PM
12/25/18 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oldMH
Get one a couple years old. They really depreciate fast. About like a car.


That's basically my only concern about buying new. The depreciation is brutal.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: Piano90X] #2795119
12/25/18 12:55 PM
12/25/18 12:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 241
Oregon USA
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Originally Posted by Piano90X
Originally Posted by oldMH
Get one a couple years old. They really depreciate fast. About like a car.


That's basically my only concern about buying new. The depreciation is brutal.



Plus you have to deal with the extra tuning and break-in period. I guess a factory warranty is worth something, but I wonder how many ever use it, and most reputable dealers offer a warranty on used pianos. I started out shopping for a new grand, but in the end, I bought a used, like new, tier 1 piano for a fraction of the cost of new.

Back to the original question; I paid 26% less than SMP for a new Hailun that I didn't end up keeping.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: Piano90X] #2795136
12/25/18 01:43 PM
12/25/18 01:43 PM
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Georgia, USA
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Originally Posted by Piano90X
Originally Posted by oldMH
Get one a couple years old. They really depreciate fast. About like a car.


That's basically my only concern about buying new. The depreciation is brutal.



The depreciation hit seems to be worst in the first 10 years, however it’s not accurate to say it’s as bad as a car. With average maintenance, a 5 year old car is worth roughly half its new value. At 10 years, most have lost 75% of their value. The vast majority of pianos, especially good quality ones take a LOT longer to get to that point.

Selection, having a manufacturer’s warranty, and a wider array of financing options are some of the advantages of buying new. Of course, you can save a good chunk on a recently made used piano.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795137
12/25/18 01:57 PM
12/25/18 01:57 PM
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Actually around fifty percent in five years has been my observation for high end pianos. Not sure about the cheaper ones but probably less.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795154
12/25/18 03:06 PM
12/25/18 03:06 PM
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While I was grand shopping, I made a spreadsheet of SMP and prices I observed. Between 70-80% of SMP seemed pretty common, with Steinways (and Bostons) being an exception (They have periodic sales that ended up being 90% of SMP). Some non-Steinway dealers would quote me the SMP or 90%+ of SMP. They did not get my business.

My favorite Yamaha and Kawai dealers had non-negotiable displayed prices that were 55-60% of SMP. Maybe the business was slow that time of year (Feb-Apr)?

Based on these numbers, I guessed that Piano Buyer SMP is 2X dealer price.

Your mileage, of course, will vary.


Currently working on: Chopin Nocturne 48 / 2
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: oldMH] #2795166
12/25/18 04:02 PM
12/25/18 04:02 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,755
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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Originally Posted by oldMH
Actually around fifty percent in five years has been my observation for high end pianos. Not sure about the cheaper ones but probably less.


I guess we’ll just agree to disagree, then. Perhaps compared to SMP/MSRP, but 50% depreciation in 5 years when considering actual selling prices is not something I tend to see, as someone who buys nicer pianos fairly frequently, tracking ads, and talking to lots of dealers and owners with what I do for the Piano Buyer.

Let’s take a fairly familiar piano— there are a good handful of listings for <10 year old NY Steinway B’s on Pianomart. They tend to be listed right around $60k. None of them paid $120k for a B, 5-10 years ago.


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Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795185
12/25/18 05:22 PM
12/25/18 05:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
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K300 Offline
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Hihi -

My new piano just arrived this week. It hasn't been tuned yet and I understand it'll take awhile to settle, I'm super excited about hearing it evolve.

It's a Kawai K-300 and I bought it from a "store closing" sale for 56% of SMP. I'd looked at used pianos for a year or so and found the whole process difficult - driving long distances (I live out in the woods), going into people's homes, and then getting a technician out to evaluate and finding a mover (the estimates for moving were crazy high). In the end it was more expensive to buy new, but I got exactly the instrument I wanted and without a lot of driving around and logistics. This forum was really key in helping me find the right piano - one that'll be reliable as well as pleasing my ears.

Best to you for finding your keys!

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795203
12/25/18 06:48 PM
12/25/18 06:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 744
Melville Saskatchewan
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FrankCox Online content
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I've been googling and I still can figure out what SMP is. Skim Milk Powder? Statutory Maternity Pay? Shanghai Municipal Police? confused


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
We got both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: FrankCox] #2795206
12/25/18 06:53 PM
12/25/18 06:53 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by FrankCox
I've been googling and I still can figure out what SMP is. Skim Milk Powder? Statutory Maternity Pay? Shanghai Municipal Police? confused

It stands for Suggested Maximum Price (SMP). Here is a good article.. If you have time/interest, you can read more in Larry Fine's Piano book.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 12/25/18 06:54 PM.

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Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795207
12/25/18 06:59 PM
12/25/18 06:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Niagara Falls NY
Wow, thanks for all the input, everyone! I've been offline due to Christmas and only had some time to sign in now. Great to see all this!

I agree, buying used is often the best way to go, but my area sees very little decent used grands. They are literally either $30,000 Steinways or $500 Wurlitzers, lol. I saw a 1968 Kawai 350 at a local dealer and I didn't even bother asking the price. This is the same place whose best price was 5% below MSRP, lol. They probably are asking $7000+ for it, no exaggeration!

The Kawai upright I bought new I figure to be a forever piano. And I love it, and got a great price for it, so not one complaint there. It's the grands that are killing me, lol.


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: K300] #2795211
12/25/18 07:08 PM
12/25/18 07:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Niagara Falls NY
Originally Posted by K300
Hihi -

My new piano just arrived this week. It hasn't been tuned yet and I understand it'll take awhile to settle, I'm super excited about hearing it evolve.

It's a Kawai K-300 and I bought it from a "store closing" sale for 56% of SMP. I'd looked at used pianos for a year or so and found the whole process difficult - driving long distances (I live out in the woods), going into people's homes, and then getting a technician out to evaluate and finding a mover (the estimates for moving were crazy high). In the end it was more expensive to buy new, but I got exactly the instrument I wanted and without a lot of driving around and logistics. This forum was really key in helping me find the right piano - one that'll be reliable as well as pleasing my ears.

Best to you for finding your keys!


Congrats on your new baby! I got my Kawai UST9 in April, and I'm thrilled with it! I'm still suffering through the settling period, but it's getting better. It was indeed exactly what I wanted and I love it! It's such a nice piano, my longing for a grand has decreased a LOT. I guess it's more of a hobby now, finding one that I both love and could afford. Who knows if I'll ever win that game! Enjoy your 300! ❤️


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795524
12/26/18 06:08 PM
12/26/18 06:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Niagara Falls NY
So just for a good laugh, I called the Yamaha dealer with the Kawai 350 and asked the price. This is a 1968, mind you, LOL. Drumroll please.............


$8400


I kid you not. It's supposedly like "brand new". 😂😂😂😂😂😂

See what I'm up against here?? I need to move.


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795527
12/26/18 06:19 PM
12/26/18 06:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
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K300 Offline
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Oh that's just ridiculous! Can you perhaps show the dealer some closed Ebay listings with comparable models? sheesh.

Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: K300] #2795550
12/26/18 07:59 PM
12/26/18 07:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 803
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Originally Posted by K300
Oh that's just ridiculous! Can you perhaps show the dealer some closed Ebay listings with comparable models? sheesh.


She literally doesn't care. This is the lady who shooed my hands away from a grand when I moved the music desk a few inches back so I could see the serial number. Different piano, that one was a Yamaha GM10. They pretty much quote MSRP for new pianos and that's about it. When I tried to negotiate with their HQ, they came back at barely 5% less, as of it was a great deal.

This shop used to be great, I bought my Clavinova there 3 years ago, but it's been terrible since the last salesperson left last year. I used to love going there. It's a real shame.


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795709
12/27/18 10:26 AM
12/27/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
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Southwest
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With prices and sales technique like that, you can just bide your time and wait for their “going out of business” sale complete with “drastically reduced prices”. In the last twenty years or more, owning a music retail business, especially pianos, just ain’t no place for the clueless. For digital pianos, brick and mortar are in battle with online retailers, and selling acoustic pianos can be incredibly difficult. Maybe the next owner will have more reasonable prices.


J & J
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Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: j&j] #2795816
12/27/18 03:01 PM
12/27/18 03:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
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Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline OP
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Originally Posted by j&j
With prices and sales technique like that, you can just bide your time and wait for their “going out of business” sale complete with “drastically reduced prices”. In the last twenty years or more, owning a music retail business, especially pianos, just ain’t no place for the clueless. For digital pianos, brick and mortar are in battle with online retailers, and selling acoustic pianos can be incredibly difficult. Maybe the next owner will have more reasonable prices.


That's my thinking, as well. That store will be run into the ground at this rate.


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2795939
12/27/18 10:07 PM
12/27/18 10:07 PM
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@ebonykawai, I know you wrote that you've been looking for a grand for 4 years already. Sorry that the pickings are so thin in Niagra Falls.

I'm at the extreme opposite end of the Eastern Seaboard but I had beginners luck when piano hunting. Turns out that the biggest Kawai and Yamaha distributor in the USA is only a 30 minute drive from me. Look up "Russell Housen" on youtube. Besides being quite a player himself, well worth listening to, his PianoOutlet.com is about to take delivery of a container full of pianos arriving from Japan (he mention this to me when I bought my first piano from him about a month ago.)

I'm a total music nobod but spent much of my life working in or owning small businesses. I was fascinated by his business model... lean and huge (warehouse-like with what looked like a big refurbishing workshop in the back.) Lots of business done online and shipped to the 4 corners of the country. But even if you wanted to play a bunch of pianos first, it sounds like it could be significantly cheaper to fly down here than keep hitting your head against the wall with your local shop owners.


Kawai GE-1
Faber All-in-One, Book 1
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2800687
01/10/19 08:45 PM
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Actually I just met him also, partially because of your post above and partially to see a golden age Steinway he advertised. It’s an impressive operation! Big volume, he does light refurbishing and can actually play well. He’s very proud of his shop and his player installations.


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Boston 118 PE

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Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2800886
01/11/19 03:01 PM
01/11/19 03:01 PM
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Niagara Falls NY
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👍👍👍


Lisa

Currently working at RCM grade 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: MSRP/SMP: What to expect in reality? [Re: ebonykawai] #2803104
01/17/19 12:30 PM
01/17/19 12:30 PM
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I’m shopping for a grand but very slowly as I’m thinking about 2 years out. I happened to be in philly yesterday and I played a Cunningham 5’10 grand in their showroom and I will tell you it is a very nice piano. $16k approx sale and a beautiful instrument and nice tone. I’d recommend anyone if they are in philly to take time to swing by and play one.

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