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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794160
12/22/18 12:46 PM
12/22/18 12:46 PM
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For those who can access it, here is a recent discussion on......when to retire, courtesy of the Beeb's classical radio station:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001cqp

Ashkenazy stopped playing piano in public (though he's still active as conductor, of course) over a decade ago, because his arthritis meant that he could no longer rely on giving consistent performances on stage, but he still records. Brendel stopped playing the big warhorses (Liszt sonata, Brahms concertos etc) a few years before he retired. An artist manager talks about musicians who insist on continuing to perform despite being well past their sell-by date, but their audiences still flock to their concerts......

Personally, what I'd do (apart from keeping myself in rude health to give myself the best chance of retaining my mental as well as physical faculties into old age.....er, actually, I am already into old age cry) when I become decrepit is to play only the rep I can still play and do justice to. And I'll never stop learning new pieces. Of course, I don't rely on music for my living, so I can do what I like musically, learn what I like, perform what I like.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794168
12/22/18 01:04 PM
12/22/18 01:04 PM
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I do emphasize the bit about very careful practice. Exercising the fingers and hands to the point where they slightly ache then stopping and doing something else. Then repeating it the next day, and the day after, etc. And with lots of different pieces posing slightly different challenges.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794171
12/22/18 01:08 PM
12/22/18 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
- I want to learn efficiency of movement (technique), because there is a greater risk of injury if you are older; and because as a more mature student I can imagine more in the music, and would be frustrated not to have the tools to get there
- understanding (theory of a practical kind, reading skills), which will enhance any slips that can happen in merely "winging it". An understanding will help circumvent such slips (I've found).
Days come, and it turns out that it ceases to act in the way you describe. You are probably not there yet, unlike me. 😥

You are a musician who achieved full skills, as I understand it. I am a student who was self-taught for a lifetime and so in the middle of relearning and unlearning. I never reached anything close to my potential. It may be that if I started when young, that I would have been able to reach beyond what I will still be able to reach now, and then now might (or might not) be experienced as a decline. I never got to full skill or full knowledge, so it can only be uphill. As such, as a student, I don't want a teacher to waste my time letting me just have fun because acquiring skills might bore me - I don't have time for that (and this is indeed an age-type thinking).

I am sorry that you are experiencing these things as a musician, and hope you might be able to find a few solutions.

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794179
12/22/18 01:24 PM
12/22/18 01:24 PM
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It's my understanding that arthritis is an autoimmune issue, which usually points to a change in diet. I have no idea what you've tried to deal with that, but it may be worthwhile to try an elimination diet and see if that helps, along with taking digestive enzymes and probiotics.


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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794185
12/22/18 01:35 PM
12/22/18 01:35 PM
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
So however old you are you can improve, with lots of careful practice. I now cross my fingers in case anything goes wrong!

This conclusion is completely individual, and may be valid in one area, and completely invalid in another with relation to a specific individual. Of course, small improvements are always possible - within certain limits. For example, if I miss the keys, this does not mean at all that I do not know and do not understand the text, that the fingering is wrong, that I did not work on correct movements, etc. This means that the hand and fingers periodically go out of control; and the only thing that can be done in this situation is to repeat hundreds of times, which helps at the moment. To a young pianist is not at all what is not known, but even incomprehensible!


Obviously genetics and lifestyle play a big role in what one is or isn't capable of doing. But I think attitude is also important.

I always think back to my teens in the fifties when going to my father's cricket matches. I remember being struck by the ones in their 40's who were deciding that they were too old to play any more. But looking at how they were playing it was quite obvious that this wasn't the case. But that was the attitude then and in many other areas of life.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794249
12/22/18 04:13 PM
12/22/18 04:13 PM
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Canada
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Sometimes, it helps if the student places the piece back on the shelf for a few months, and comes back to it with refreshed eyes and ears! It may also help if they listen to different recordings of the same piece to see what's out there.

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: bennevis] #2794280
12/22/18 05:06 PM
12/22/18 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
...when I become decrepit is to play only the rep I can still play and do justice to.
What makes you think you will be objective about whether you can do justice to pieces? smile It's sometimes tricky being objective before one is decrepit.

I recall a hiking adventure of mine some years ago. My late husband and I, having traversed the tricky but rewarding terrain, were halfway to the peak of Mount Cheam. I remember it so well, as my teacher had set me a little Allemande by Handel to learn, and I was whistling it on such an endless loop that my dear husband, himself a respectable pianist in his own right, was irritated at my constant whistling. Anyway, I digress... We sat in a clearing to ease our tired feet - we were of course quite used to such hikes, but we're all but human - and, as we were replenishing ourselves with some snacks from our almost overflowing rucksacks, we heard a rustling, only to see an elderly gentleman, many years my husband's senior, appear, huffing and panting.

The gentleman, it transpired, had once been an experienced mountaineer and had traversed many a peak in his time. Boredom set in as he rambled on and on about his past adventures, but we learned that he had, naturally, climbed to the top of Mount Cheam on many prior occasions, as it wasn't a particularly difficult climb in itself, all things considered. However, he had reached a point where he was no longer able to do it, but that didn't stop him trying, despite clearly being unable to make it on this occasion. He was unable to be objective.

The moral here is to be aware of one's limitations. And, of course, to be objective about one's abilities in the first place.


"Never measure the height of a mountain until you have reached the top. Then you will see how low it was."
Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: maunakea] #2794369
12/23/18 01:17 AM
12/23/18 01:17 AM
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Posts: 16,586
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Originally Posted by maunakea
What makes you think you will be objective about whether you can do justice to pieces? smile ..........
However, he had reached a point where he was no longer able to do it, but that didn't stop him trying, despite clearly being unable to make it on this occasion. He was unable to be objective.

From your story, you had just met the gentleman. He might well have had an idea that he might not make it all the way this time, but decided to go as far as he could go anyway. smile

As far as doing justice to pieces is concerned, I remember reading no less than Menuhin writing that playing was an infinite challenge, where one would always fall short of one's vision, but the pleasure was in reaching for the stars.

Quote
The moral here is to be aware of one's limitations. And, of course, to be objective about one's abilities in the first place.

What does that actually mean, in terms of music. And in regards to abilities, are we not perhaps in a state of continual growth? wink

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: keystring] #2794372
12/23/18 01:26 AM
12/23/18 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
[
And in regards to abilities, are we not perhaps in a state of continual growth? wink
Until we reach the point where the continua descent begins. And we must face the truth!

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794380
12/23/18 02:02 AM
12/23/18 02:02 AM
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Canada
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I don't deal in absolutes like the word "truth" written so broadly. My eyesight is not as good as it was. That is a real and concrete thing.

I have still not been able to grasp what you are saying in the context of teaching. (?)

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Colin Miles] #2794399
12/23/18 04:43 AM
12/23/18 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Regarding declining abilities with respect to age, when I restarted at the age of 60 I had a bit of a stiffness issue with the 3rd finger of my right hand. Practice helped with this but didn't completely remove it. Moving on some 15 years and taking things more seriously, and with very, very careful practice of from 2 to 3 hours 6 days a week over the past 15 months, the stiffness has vanished.

This is in your case. My case is different: the left hand gradually began to work worse and slower. Despite many exercises, she is constantly late in relation to her right hand (set today). If you add a lot of memory problems, then I suspect that there was a micro-stroke. It remains to stay somehow on the surface of the water ...

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794412
12/23/18 05:41 AM
12/23/18 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Regarding declining abilities with respect to age, when I restarted at the age of 60 I had a bit of a stiffness issue with the 3rd finger of my right hand. Practice helped with this but didn't completely remove it. Moving on some 15 years and taking things more seriously, and with very, very careful practice of from 2 to 3 hours 6 days a week over the past 15 months, the stiffness has vanished.

This is in your case. My case is different: the left hand gradually began to work worse and slower. Despite many exercises, she is constantly late in relation to her right hand (set today). If you add a lot of memory problems, then I suspect that there was a micro-stroke. It remains to stay somehow on the surface of the water ...

My sympathies. Trying to be positive and encouraging. My problems relate to hearing but that is another story.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: maunakea] #2794465
12/23/18 09:55 AM
12/23/18 09:55 AM
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Posts: 16,653
Boynton Beach, FL
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Originally Posted by maunakea
Originally Posted by bennevis
...when I become decrepit is to play only the rep I can still play and do justice to.
What makes you think you will be objective about whether you can do justice to pieces? smile It's sometimes tricky being objective before one is decrepit.

I recall a hiking adventure of mine some years ago. My late husband and I, having traversed the tricky but rewarding terrain, were halfway to the peak of Mount Cheam. I remember it so well, as my teacher had set me a little Allemande by Handel to learn, and I was whistling it on such an endless loop that my dear husband, himself a respectable pianist in his own right, was irritated at my constant whistling. Anyway, I digress... We sat in a clearing to ease our tired feet - we were of course quite used to such hikes, but we're all but human - and, as we were replenishing ourselves with some snacks from our almost overflowing rucksacks, we heard a rustling, only to see an elderly gentleman, many years my husband's senior, appear, huffing and panting.

The gentleman, it transpired, had once been an experienced mountaineer and had traversed many a peak in his time. Boredom set in as he rambled on and on about his past adventures, but we learned that he had, naturally, climbed to the top of Mount Cheam on many prior occasions, as it wasn't a particularly difficult climb in itself, all things considered. However, he had reached a point where he was no longer able to do it, but that didn't stop him trying, despite clearly being unable to make it on this occasion. He was unable to be objective.

The moral here is to be aware of one's limitations. And, of course, to be objective about one's abilities in the first place.



This sounds to me like giving up something you love. I will only stop playing piano if I physically can't anymore - at any capacity: under tempo, simpler pieces, etc. I totally would be that man, doing what he loves in whatever capacity he could, still challenging himself. Why does it have to be at the approval of everyone else for me to continue playing?

Even if I'm reduced to Twinkle Twinkle, it's going to be that because I enjoy it.


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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Morodiene] #2794570
12/23/18 02:36 PM
12/23/18 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Even if I'm reduced to Twinkle Twinkle, it's going to be that because I enjoy it.


thumb

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Morodiene] #2794589
12/23/18 03:43 PM
12/23/18 03:43 PM
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by maunakea
Originally Posted by bennevis
...when I become decrepit is to play only the rep I can still play and do justice to.
What makes you think you will be objective about whether you can do justice to pieces? smile It's sometimes tricky being objective before one is decrepit.

I recall a hiking adventure of mine some years ago. My late husband and I, having traversed the tricky but rewarding terrain, were halfway to the peak of Mount Cheam. I remember it so well, as my teacher had set me a little Allemande by Handel to learn, and I was whistling it on such an endless loop that my dear husband, himself a respectable pianist in his own right, was irritated at my constant whistling. Anyway, I digress... We sat in a clearing to ease our tired feet - we were of course quite used to such hikes, but we're all but human - and, as we were replenishing ourselves with some snacks from our almost overflowing rucksacks, we heard a rustling, only to see an elderly gentleman, many years my husband's senior, appear, huffing and panting.

The gentleman, it transpired, had once been an experienced mountaineer and had traversed many a peak in his time. Boredom set in as he rambled on and on about his past adventures, but we learned that he had, naturally, climbed to the top of Mount Cheam on many prior occasions, as it wasn't a particularly difficult climb in itself, all things considered. However, he had reached a point where he was no longer able to do it, but that didn't stop him trying, despite clearly being unable to make it on this occasion. He was unable to be objective.

The moral here is to be aware of one's limitations. And, of course, to be objective about one's abilities in the first place.



This sounds to me like giving up something you love. I will only stop playing piano if I physically can't anymore - at any capacity: under tempo, simpler pieces, etc. I totally would be that man, doing what he loves in whatever capacity he could, still challenging himself. Why does it have to be at the approval of everyone else for me to continue playing?

Even if I'm reduced to Twinkle Twinkle, it's going to be that because I enjoy it.


Amen to that sentiment!


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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794598
12/23/18 04:03 PM
12/23/18 04:03 PM
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I think that there is some ... exaggeration. Artist communication occurs in two directions: with himself and with others. For yourself personally, you can play not only Twinkle Twinkle, but even a single sound - and have fun (just at this forum I suggested starting developing improvisational skills with a single note ). For you, a single sound always carries your intimate meaning. However, in musical communication with others ...

Last edited by Nahum; 12/23/18 04:04 PM.
Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794610
12/23/18 04:55 PM
12/23/18 04:55 PM
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Nahum .... You are writing this in the teacher forum. This may be causing some confusion. Are you writing anything that has to do with teaching students, or students learning? Or is this only a musician talking to other musicians who also happen to be teachers? I am slightly lost here.

Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794677
12/23/18 08:32 PM
12/23/18 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
I think that there is some ... exaggeration. Artist communication occurs in two directions: with himself and with others. For yourself personally, you can play not only Twinkle Twinkle, but even a single sound - and have fun (just at this forum I suggested starting developing improvisational skills with a single note ). For you, a single sound always carries your intimate meaning. However, in musical communication with others ...

Well, don't go own without a fight. Look into ways to treat through diet, essential oils, and other alternatives.

At the very least, you have the benefit of being able to teach as well. I knew of an older teacher whose hands were gnarled by arthritis to the point where she couldn't possibly play piano. But she kept teaching and loved being able to share her music that way.


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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: Nahum] #2794689
12/23/18 09:11 PM
12/23/18 09:11 PM
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I am a little confused too.

Is it a paradox?

I think it is not so much a paradox as simply the way of the world.
We get old, our skills wane, our potential fades. Maybe we still have high hopes and high expectations, but... what?
One can look at a newborn and see possibilities.
One looks at a 50, 60, or 70 year old and sees more history, but fewer possibilities. Perhaps the point for teachers is to be aware of the diminished possibilities for older students. *shrug* The teacher must embrace the possibilities of the moment with the student.


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Re: The paradox of a very adult pianist. [Re: malkin] #2794709
12/23/18 10:38 PM
12/23/18 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
One looks at a 50, 60, or 70 year old and sees more history, but fewer possibilities. Perhaps the point for teachers is to be aware of the diminished possibilities for older students. *shrug* The teacher must embrace the possibilities of the moment with the student.

Nahum seems to be writing about the situation of a full musician, an active, trained musician, who has gotten older, rather than a student who is older.

For the student, rather than awareness of "diminished possibilities", I'd like to stress the importance of efficient learning. There is less time to have wasted by careless teaching, and a greater chance of injury if healthy movement (technique) is not taught. One doesn't know the possibilities of any student, of any age, esp. at the beginning. But one can certainly affect those possibilities positively or negatively.

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