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Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793560
12/20/18 08:22 PM
12/20/18 08:22 PM
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Maine, USA
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Originally Posted by HollowRiku
Hi guys!......The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins, some of them are more damaged than others (the 4th one looks a bit scary), here's a pic......
......I'm not that strong at all and thought I would be okay tuning it with my older hammer, but I guess you're right that the old hammer could be damaging the pins. I've been quite happy with the piano besides that, according to my technician some of the materials used in this piano aren't up to the quality and standard of a Kawai, he knows how Kawais are made and says this doesn't look like one, but I repeat I don't know much about those things and I've played many amazing Kawai pianos, I do like the brand.

Thomann has told me to sent some videos and pictures and I'm waiting for their reply, but as some of you said it's a delicate case and the easiest thing to do in their case would be fully blaming myself for it. After reading all your posts I admit my part of the blame, specially for using a cheap hammer, but I still don't think it was all because of me :c


The tight pins have a small role in this when all is factored in.
But, I am afraid that tuning method was bad. BUT, I do think Kawai will work with you on this...Give them a chance. Just be up front. You don't have to go laying all blame on yourself, just describe the situation to them honestly (don't discuss blame)- they will be the ones to decide.

Hope things work out for you with it.

Oh, and Peter is right-- it is a good quality in a person to be able to take blame. I know a lot of people who would be very demanding in this situation (even if they thought they were the cause)- thinking they would be able to get Kawai to do whatever...


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
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Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793593
12/20/18 10:44 PM
12/20/18 10:44 PM
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USA
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I like to use pins with bluing on the thread. It's my experience that bluing along with slower, more careful drilling feels much better than what Indonesia and China are producing. Just a suggestion, Kawai and Yamaha...….




Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: Rick_Parks] #2793664
12/21/18 01:42 AM
12/21/18 01:42 AM
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I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.


Semipro Tech
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793686
12/21/18 05:40 AM
12/21/18 05:40 AM
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Quote
Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.



Yes, with just that tip, it would be very difficult, I think, to find a position for the lever, in some places. I have a long tip, and a tip extension for my Fujan, to cover the possibilities for grands.

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: BDB] #2793758
12/21/18 10:34 AM
12/21/18 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.



Yes, with just that tip, it would be very difficult, I think, to find a position for the lever, in some places. I have a long tip, and a tip extension for my Fujan, to cover the possibilities for grands.


My point in asking is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, IF the tips are the ones he used to tune, then one could imagine where the chewing took place- as he could not get clearance the hammer would move up and down and skip along the pin...


Originally Posted by BDB
I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.


It was not a one time event, BDB- that's what I am saying.
He says he tuned it at least 3-4 times a year for over two years. That's at minimal 6-8 tunings total (probably 10), NOT factoring in "touch-up" unison adjustments (which most people who play and tune for themselves also do quite frequently, when they hear slippage)...
My point is that if the harsh treatment is repeated and repeated- (the evidence for it is all there)- then I am quite sure one gets the result that we are all seeing.

When I get a chance sometime here, I am going to go to test out on an old pinblock piece and a new pin- will attempt to destroy the pin in a process that I am talking about (see just how much it takes to do so gradually)-- never thought to try it before.
I'll use a short tip as seen.

I would love to be able to see the tuning technique he uses-- visually. Perhaps I am wrong, but it would be interesting.


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793775
12/21/18 11:13 AM
12/21/18 11:13 AM
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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I too would be interested in a real time video. How about it HollowRiku? Show us what you're doing. Need to see actual technique on several pins. Don't be embarrassed, this is diagnostics 101. The cure depends on an accurate diagnosis (as Dr. Sarno would say).

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: BDB] #2793807
12/21/18 12:26 PM
12/21/18 12:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,399
Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by BDB
I cannot imagine a technique that would cause a tuning pin to break, except maybe if I put my entire weight pushing down on the hammer. That would not be a technique that a reasonable person would use to tune a string. I have had experience with tuning pins being damaged by a bad tuning tip, but that only leaves nicks in the corners of the pin, which can be filed off.

I would like to have some insight as to how normal tuning pins could be damaged in the same way as these.


BDB, this is because you have never had one break. :-) Have you never removed tuning pins and found them bent? It is very common for some piano tuners to bend tuning pins while tuning, and if they can bend them, the pins can also be broken. As I mentioned earlier, the becket hole is the weak point; with a tuning lever that is too high up on the pin, a very tight fitting tuning pin, and an inexperienced person not understanding what they are doing, the pins can be bent or broken.

If you sometime have a sacrificial piano that you can try it on, do so.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: P W Grey] #2793834
12/21/18 01:58 PM
12/21/18 01:58 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,083
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Hakki Online content
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Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793838
12/21/18 02:03 PM
12/21/18 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 494
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Kawaii Don,
One thing you said earlier that I have been thinking about was

" the tuning pin has to be softer than the music wire or else strings would break all the time".

This is true and also not true. I agree with the concept, but they shouldn't be so soft as to leave coil depressions around the pin as seen in the photos.
I've restrung hundreds of pianos and never saw that before. Perhaps that could warrant a discount on restringing for the OP?

BTW, I really enjoyed your visit and the class you gave in Knoxville.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793883
12/21/18 04:10 PM
12/21/18 04:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,017
Bradford County, PA
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Bradford County, PA
I had a tuning pin break in the '70s on a Baldwin Studio. That piano also had a plate bushing missing (?!?!?) along with a broken bass note upper termination pin. I guessed it was a "friday" piano. I am inclinded to believe that bent tuning pins happen on installation. I have no proof one way or another, just my inclination.

I got one of those long tuning heads for grands, used it a few times and now just manuever myself so the handle of the tuning hammer points to the tail of the piano when needed. A longer head creates more flagpoling and can make it more challenging to render the string for best stability.

As far as the OP's original tuning head, I think the spec was like a mechanic's 8-point socket. Thos do not have a taper. Notice how the grooves in the pin get deeper and deeper as the taper widens on the pin?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: Hakki] #2793966
12/21/18 08:40 PM
12/21/18 08:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?


Hakki,

The information is not mentioned because it is ASSUMED that a professional tuner/tech will be servicing the piano (in fact I think that's actually recommended), and the pros don't need to be told what tip to use...they know.

So my concern is what size these pins are. If they are 1/0 (or nearest metric equivalent) then they are standard issue Kawai. If they are bigger than that I would want to track down exactly why...straight from the factory, or repinned elsewhere?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: P W Grey] #2794308
12/22/18 06:43 PM
12/22/18 06:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 498
Maine, USA
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Rick_Parks Offline
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Maine, USA
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by P W Grey


Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify).


What size tip should have the OP use?
Is this information included in the warranty statement ? That is, is there a warning not to use any size tip other than the required?


Hakki,

The information is not mentioned because it is ASSUMED that a professional tuner/tech will be servicing the piano (in fact I think that's actually recommended), and the pros don't need to be told what tip to use...they know.

So my concern is what size these pins are. If they are 1/0 (or nearest metric equivalent) then they are standard issue Kawai. If they are bigger than that I would want to track down exactly why...straight from the factory, or repinned elsewhere?

Pwg


I certainly think this would not hurt to check on, in this given situation. One never really knows what could have happened between MFG and the sale.

I would also think that the MFGs would include a clause to free them of responsibility against DYI in the warranty stipulations!


Edit: In English that would also be known as DIY sheesh


Last edited by Rick_Parks; 12/22/18 06:49 PM.

Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2794341
12/22/18 09:44 PM
12/22/18 09:44 PM
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Hakki Online content
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Originally Posted by HollowRiku
The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins


Did he replace the pins by original Kawai pins?

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2816099
02/16/19 10:42 AM
02/16/19 10:42 AM
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America
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Jitin Offline
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Hello Just checking up, was the original poster able to fix this problem, and how much did it take to fix it (money?effort?time?)?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2816119
02/16/19 12:03 PM
02/16/19 12:03 PM
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A most interesting thread.

It looks to me as though there might be a combined problem here. The marks around the pins do look like an interaction of glue with the pins and as such the pins could have led to an inexperienced tuner merely compounding the fundamental problem, that problem being with the manufacturer.

In my opinion and experience it seems to be good practice to let down a string slightly before taking it up. Then the string is working with you to break whatever sticking there is, and then one can bring the string up to pitch without forces compounding on the pin. That's where an inexperience in tuning might have put more pressure on the pins. One then brings the string to slightly above pitch to then settle down exact.

The second aspect of technique with a lever rather than a T hammer is in the rotation. That rotation has got to be a rotation without a leverage bending force. Therefore one may use the further end of the hand on the lever to do the pulling up but use the thumb end of the hand to counteract the sideways bending force. This can be painful on the hand but is best. Otherwise especially with stiff pins, pulling on the end of the lever will both rotate and bend the pin.

For this reason it looks as though wrong hammer technique may have been the deathknell for faulty manufacture, the faulty manufacture being normally hidden by the toleration of experienced tuners to very tight pins.

With proper setting of the pin, taking the string slightly above and letting it settle where it wants to be on pitch, the instrument might have been more stable and needing less frequent tuning. The frequency of tuning suggests inexperience.

The temperature and humidity variations in Mallorca might require more frequent tuning although I have tuned in South of France and Italy with great stability of result as well as in Malta.

Best wishes

David P


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Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2816341
02/16/19 08:42 PM
02/16/19 08:42 PM
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Jitin Offline
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So my question is , is something like this repairable? At reasonable price

Last edited by Jitin; 02/16/19 08:44 PM.

Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2818590
02/21/19 10:56 PM
02/21/19 10:56 PM
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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I believe the tuning pins would need replacement at least. Personally, I would Want to restring the piano entirely...probably.

8-16 hours to re-pin. 30-40 hours to restring. Plus materials.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
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