2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
73 members (AaronSF, AlphaTerminus, 36251, accordeur, BeeZee4, Boboulus, 20 invisible), 551 guests, and 385 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 6 of 11 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 11
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
OE1FEU #2792971 12/19/18 09:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 674
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 674
Well new back checks are usually done. I either replace or recover. Most of the action replacement that I do is on university pianos, 10 -15 years old with worn hammers. I always use new shanks and flanges. We had two in the last several years that had spillage so the whole thing had to go. But for the old pianos, the new parts work fine. I just did an 1896 instrument using the new parts and it regulated out very nicely. The Steinway parts are maple instead of hornbeam - much lighter and easier to weigh off for a nice touch weight. My opinion is just my opinion.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
(ad int) Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
S. Phillips #2793007 12/19/18 11:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,068
K
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,068
Originally Posted by S. Phillips
My opinion is just my opinion.


Sez you!!!!


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
OE1FEU #2793010 12/19/18 11:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,268
J
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,268
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by S. Phillips
Current Steinway parts fit the old Steinways.


Nope. Modern hammer tails don't work with back checks from 1886. Had to replace them with new ones from Steinway. Same with the capstans, .....


Well.... That's how it works. You can always use the new parts. You just have to replace more and more of the old ones with new ones until you run out of old ones that don't work with the new ones.... ;-)


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793034 12/19/18 12:37 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,069
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,069
The most interesting consideration I've had is, despite my personal feelings, which are not sympathetic to Steinway's position, were I Steinway would I do the same?

I'm embarrassed to answer!


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793044 12/19/18 01:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 168
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 168
I'm not a lawyer (thank God!) but this is what I found on
https://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/crashcourse/limitations/

"Removing a trademark from a product is not a use of the trademark, as one would expect. In some cases it might even be necessary to remove such a label, for example when the product has been adapted or modified by a third party."

On the "first sale" doctrine in the USA:

"The idea behind it is that the trademark holder has had a chance to ensure the quality of the product and to make money on the first sale, and then he no longer has a right to control further distribution of that product. Of course it only applies to the particular products he put on the market, ..."

So (in my opinion) Steinway has the right to insist on its trademark being erased from rebuilt instruments.
I wonder if I can legally produce "Starrway" pianos here in Richmond?

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Mosotti #2793045 12/19/18 01:11 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,974
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,974
Originally Posted by Mosotti
I will have to disagree with that. Renner from today is not Steinway from 1900. It's perfectly OK to put any action you want in it, BUT don't write Steinway on it. That's all Steinway wants and the claim is absolutely reasonable, because there's no way to tell if the non Steinway part is actually Steinway quality. Maybe it is 10000 times better, but in most cases I'm pretty sure it's crap and the decals are used to fool buyers...


Mosotti,

You are in Romania. An overwhelming number of Steinway pianos you play have Renner actions in them. Steinway has historically been one of Renner's customers.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Philadelphia, King of Prussia, and Cherry Hill, NJ
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Visit our Online Store
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793076 12/19/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 255
If Steinway subscribes to the notion that "there's no such thing as bad publicity", they've certainly managed to get a lot of us talking about them. For me that idiom doesn't stand up; I feel less inclined to buy a Steinway now than before.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793077 12/19/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 403
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 403
According to Steinway it is therefore imperative to restore any Steinway built between 1962 and 1982 to have Teflon bushings, right?

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
OE1FEU #2793271 12/20/18 12:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31
OE1FEU, you win the thread, and you brought me some nostalgic joy, as well. Decades ago, when I was in graduate school, a clever vandal re-branded a few forlorn practice room pianos as "Tinway & Sons". I've never forgotten it when I look at a ***Steinway***! Incidentally, by preference, I own a Mason & Hamlin and a Blüthner. The Mason & Hamlin has Ronsen hammers (an excellent after-market product on this continent) and, I believe, Abel knuckles, carefully chosen by the hammer-installing technician to match the dimensions of the originals. It makes me happy daily, despite, evidently, not being a Mason & Hamlin anymore. (I see you are in Vienna, so you might not know of our old Mason & Hamlins. Believe me, they are second to none.)


1932 Mason & Hamlin A9
1877 Blüthner 185 cm Patent Aliquot grand
1883 Henry F. Miller pedal upright
Edward L. Kottick double-fretted clavichord
Lyndon Taylor double-fretted clavichord

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
mha9 #2793298 12/20/18 02:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 403
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by mha9
(I see you are in Vienna, so you might not know of our old Mason & Hamlins. Believe me, they are second to none.)


I've just returned from a trip to the US where I visited two piano makers that either had M&H ready to play or were in the process of restoring a concert grand from 1905. The ones I played were unique and pleasant to play. Same with a Chickerin, beautifully restored by the masters of Hampshire Pianos.

As to Mr. Tinway, alas, no vandal at work, just bad glue. While the 'S' came off quickly and visible, the 'E' started getting loose unnoticed and produced a massive injury to the owner, requiring him to cancel a number of concerts because of a deep flesh wound.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793519 12/20/18 06:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 633
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 633
The falling "e" most probably was of a very old make...

Once it must have been used by a prominent french doctor who did a solution to a huge problem of the french revolution in 1789, too many states enemies..., when he ordered a piano maker to build the very first...

...

Guillo Tin (e) ... .

So this may explain how dangerously sharp this letter "e" was...


Pls excuse any bad english.

Centennial D Sept 1877

Working on Berceuse op.57
Nocturnes op. 9-1,3 15-1,2,3 27-2 32-1,2
Going Home (Mark Knopfler)
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2793967 12/21/18 08:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
Reddit r/piano is going a bit nuts with discussions on this topic: here, here, and here.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2794024 12/22/18 01:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 793
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 793
Did anybody else notice that the Steinway letter was perpetuating a strawman fallacy?


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Larry Hofer #2794190 12/22/18 01:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 793
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 793
Here's my prediction:


施坦威和儿子
Shī tǎn wēi hàn érzi


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Rich Galassini #2794217 12/22/18 02:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,457
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Originally Posted by Mosotti
I will have to disagree with that. Renner from today is not Steinway from 1900. It's perfectly OK to put any action you want in it, BUT don't write Steinway on it. That's all Steinway wants and the claim is absolutely reasonable, because there's no way to tell if the non Steinway part is actually Steinway quality. Maybe it is 10000 times better, but in most cases I'm pretty sure it's crap and the decals are used to fool buyers...


Mosotti,

You are in Romania. An overwhelming number of Steinway pianos you play have Renner actions in them. Steinway has historically been one of Renner's customers.


As far as I know, all Hamburg Steinways now use Renner parts. I heard something about them all switching to NY Steinway parts or all switching to Hamburg Renner parts at some time soon but I'm not sure if that ever happened.

When rebuilders buy parts from Hamburg here I *THINK* the parts are the Renner parts but ordered through Steinways, so it gets the Steinway box and Steinway sticker and all that. As far as I know one can buy a complete top action from Steinways and then it needs to be fitted to the keyboard and action rails.

I don't know the difference between parts bought from Renner directly and parts bought from Steinway directly, regarding Hamburg instruments. I know a few rebuilders are switching to Tokiwa claiming they are a bit more reliable. Now there doesn't seem to be a cost reason to choose one over the other at least in the UK.

If Steinway successfully sues anyone over this, it has implications for the repair and sale of all used pianos.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Chernobieff Piano #2794221 12/22/18 02:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Here's my prediction:


施坦威和儿子
Shī tǎn wēi hàn érzi

That's not much of a prediction. Don't forget PGC owned by the Chinese Govt.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Joseph Fleetwood #2794253 12/22/18 04:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,068
K
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,068
Originally Posted by joe80


If Steinway successfully sues anyone over this, it has implications for the repair and sale of all used pianos.


If Steinway successfully sues anyone over this it has implications for the repair and sale of anything anyone ever buys and thinks they own themselves.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Joseph Fleetwood #2794270 12/22/18 04:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,244
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by joe80
If Steinway successfully sues anyone over this, it has implications for the repair and sale of all used pianos.

Yes, well said.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Keith D Kerman #2794272 12/22/18 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 748
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 748
On the decal thing, perhaps the solution can be found in examples like these:

Rebuilder'sName - Model S (for Steinway) and X for model, e.g., Cunningham Model SB, PianoCraft Model SA, etc.

As to the provenance of the parts, perhaps something like what is found in automobiles:
Hammers - New York Steinway
Shanks/Flanges - Wherever (e.g., WNG Carbon Fibre, Louis Renner, NY Steinway)
Soundboard - Wherever
etc.

As to the Steinway name on the plate, well, hopefully that won't have to be ground off.

Putting the rebuilder's name ahead of the Type in the decal, as well as having a parts sourcing sheet might even allow independent rebuilders to promote their wares as superior to a "stock" Steinway rebuild.

Decal, Shmecal....

Happy Saturday to all.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway
Seeker #2794296 12/22/18 06:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,706
Originally Posted by Seeker
On the decal thing, perhaps the solution can be found in examples like these:

Rebuilder'sName - Model S (for Steinway) and X for model, e.g., Cunningham Model SB, PianoCraft Model SA, etc.

As to the provenance of the parts, perhaps something like what is found in automobiles:
Hammers - New York Steinway
Shanks/Flanges - Wherever (e.g., WNG Carbon Fibre, Louis Renner, NY Steinway)
Soundboard - Wherever
etc.

As to the Steinway name on the plate, well, hopefully that won't have to be ground off.

Putting the rebuilder's name ahead of the Type in the decal, as well as having a parts sourcing sheet might even allow independent rebuilders to promote their wares as superior to a "stock" Steinway rebuild.

Decal, Shmecal....

Happy Saturday to all.

Don't know if you got the idea from other industries, but this is exactly done in the car industry. For example, Ford makes the Mustang, but there is also: Shelby Mustang, Roush Mustang, Steeda Mustang, and Saleen Mustang. Each of these four companies just stuck their name in front of the model name for their variant. Now in the case of Steinway, the model name is just a letter, so as you say, maybe another letter like "S" is called for here: "SA", "SB", "SD", "SO", or maybe "SS-A", "SS-B", etc. They definitely didn't copyright "SS!"


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Page 6 of 11 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 11

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Contemporary music forum
by toyboy - 06/04/20 04:20 PM
Gebr. Zimmermann bass string replacement
by Ny. Dominik - 06/04/20 04:20 PM
New-Sample Science-Cinematic Piano
by newer player - 06/04/20 03:36 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,400
Posts2,966,044
Members97,301
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4