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Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: BDB] #2792904
12/19/18 12:59 AM
12/19/18 12:59 AM
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Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by BDB
I think it was a bad batch of tuning pins.

I agree. The internal structure of that pin metal doesn't look right at all. It doesn't have the appearance of quality high tensile steel. It has a crumbling appearance of poor cast iron. Maybe too much carbon in the matrix.

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Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: ando] #2792907
12/19/18 01:15 AM
12/19/18 01:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,559
KZ, Uralsk
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB
I think it was a bad batch of tuning pins.

I agree. The internal structure of that pin metal doesn't look right at all. It doesn't have the appearance of quality high tensile steel. It has a crumbling appearance of poor cast iron. Maybe too much carbon in the matrix.

looks like sulimin

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2792941
12/19/18 05:41 AM
12/19/18 05:41 AM
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Hakki Offline
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https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/

From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: Hakki] #2792960
12/19/18 08:32 AM
12/19/18 08:32 AM
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Chiltern Hills, England.
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Originally Posted by Hakki

https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/
From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.


Clearly pins must be able to withstand rather more than half a dozen tunings to be fit for purpose but I wonder about the tuning methodology. Turning a pin normally should in no way exert stresses on the pin that approach the strength limits of the pin or again the design is not fit for purpose yet were normal forces exerted? If you lean down heavily on the hammer rather than just applying rotational force the pin bends and friction in the pin block increases, if you really go for it can you actually break a decent quality pin like that?

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: Hakki] #2792977
12/19/18 09:54 AM
12/19/18 09:54 AM
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KZ, Uralsk
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Originally Posted by Hakki

https://www.fatec-engineering.com/2018/02/20/description-of-a-s-n-curve/

From an engineering point of view I think tuning a piano with 4-5 months intervals in two years would not correspond to standard fatigue criteria. But rather there should be some plastic deformation to the pin while tuning.
Considering that tuning pins are made of high strength steel it is unlikely that OP has exceeded the yield point and caused plastic deformation which would break the pin in a short time.






I'm think that you are wrong. A pin (it's body) works only in the zone of elastic deformations. The plastic deformation of a pin if it's there must to destruction it's. By the way, a broken pin is the result of plastic deformation here

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2792990
12/19/18 10:33 AM
12/19/18 10:33 AM
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The assumption was "High Strength Steel". I question the metallurgy of this batch of pins because all the bad tuning technique in the world is not going to distort the holes like that shown in the picture.
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2792993
12/19/18 10:43 AM
12/19/18 10:43 AM
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Hampshire UK
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Hampshire UK
Have to say I always prefer blue pins.... I've always thought chrome pins display more twist. I get a better tuning on blue.
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2792997
12/19/18 10:49 AM
12/19/18 10:49 AM
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I suspect a Japanese firm like Kawai would use tuning pins that would not satisfy their specs.
It is unlikely that tuning pins that is lower quality then their set specs pass the quality control checks and make their way to final assembly.

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793033
12/19/18 12:37 PM
12/19/18 12:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,393
Orange County, CA
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I have contacted our international office in Japan about this piano. It is very bad that the owner has complicated the situation by damaging many tuning pins. Of course the tuning pins should not be this tight or have those brown stripes on them. Something is very strange about this piano.

If a tuning pin breaks it is normally at the becket hole - this is the weakest point. But as others have said, it's not very common. I've seen it before, usually caused by extremely tight pin fit combined with excessive bending motion with the tuning lever.

Tuning pins are not hardened or heat treated. They are a hard steel - but music wire is harder, and can leave marks on the pins. If the tuning pins are made to be as hard as the strings, then the strings will tend to break at the becket. So it is normal for the tuning pins to have a SLIGHT amount of rounding of the becket hole. The situation here is extreme - and like a few others here in the forum it does seem clear that the combination of very tight fitting pins, a very bad tuning lever, and mishandling of the tuning process by an inexperienced hand is contributing to the damage.

The owner should definitely be in touch with the dealer who sold the piano, and see what they can do. But again, warranty coverage is complicated by the damage done by the owner.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793043
12/19/18 01:05 PM
12/19/18 01:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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New Hampshire
Don,

Is it conceivable that the warranty could end up being voided under the "abuse or neglect" clause? Not that I am advising it...just asking.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: KawaiDon] #2793057
12/19/18 01:40 PM
12/19/18 01:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 537
America
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Jitin Offline
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America
Lets say, one does not have warranty, is pin damage like that, not repairable?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793087
12/19/18 03:08 PM
12/19/18 03:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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One would need to repin at the very least...preferably restring completely.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: P W Grey] #2793099
12/19/18 03:26 PM
12/19/18 03:26 PM
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America
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America
Originally Posted by P W Grey
One would need to repin at the very least...preferably restring completely.

Pwg


I guess what i am asking is, if it is even possible to fix it, and at reasonable costs, since the OP, made it seem like it is end of that piano.


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: P W Grey] #2793173
12/19/18 07:01 PM
12/19/18 07:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Maine, USA
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Was away all day... Few points I wanted to touch on:

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
[quote=Rick_Parks]I am not sure what I said that would cause me to be seen as set to blame the manufacturer. My two posts were focused on things I observed that had not yet been discussed in this thread as of the time I posted. I was sincere in seeking the input and comment of the many veteran technicians here on the two questions (high speed pin turning, and, the dark rings) I raised. I had no other intent.

I am still not satisfied that we know all the influences that contributed to the pin failure. For me, most of my doubt centers on whether or not the pin was subjected to high heat at some point. My experiences tell me that subjecting metal to high heat can weaken it......


I didn't mean you had a hidden motive or anything like that... I simply was meaning that with the Post Title itself and the comments around it, it is suggestive:
Title- "HUGE problem with the tuning pins" (not the tuner)
Then all of the suggestive comments such as, "high speed installation burning the pins", and words that we have seen from others- that this was most certainly "a warranty issue", "return it and get another", "bad batch of tuning pins" etc. etc. Just read the thread...
All of these comments are suggesting that Kawai should be considered to be under warranty obligation for something that, at least ONE of us (*clears throat importantly), was stressing was definitely (in this case) the owner's doing.

And I make the point again- Tight Pins have nothing to do with this situation.
Many of us face tight pins every day in new pianos.
This is a normal feature on many NEW pianos these days. In fact, there is another thread running on here, in which the techs are discussing the normality of this very issue- and how the tuner needs to work the pins back and forth sometimes to free them up a little...
Tight pins do not- of themselves lead to breaking. It is the tuner's responsibility to free them up properly, so that the piano may be able to receive a decent tuning.

Blue pins, nickel plated pins, DOES NOT lead to this situation either... Tuning pins are the least likely area a piano mfg is going to be shoddy. I don't even know where one can find a cheap "Indonesian" maker of tuning pins.

The piano is a complete loss. The re-string/re-pinning on this one MIGHT be a bit more costly, since there may be pins breaking off in the attempt to remove.

This said, I would like to be clear that I am not trying to pick on the Poster- HollowRiku - here... I think we all do things in life that we would like to take back afterward. I was simply trying to counter the tide of voices that were comforting and consoling and encouraging a warranty return as Kawai's responsibility. AND the fact that people WERE suggestive that Kawai was being shoddy in something when there was NO evidence of such a thing.

I am very glad that KawaiDon showed up (as I had thought he would eventually- LOL)... Kawai does care about their reputation, and the customer (as we have seen here). But, as I said- there are going to be hard questions to answer, if someone is thinking they will just blame this on warranty issues with the instrument. I doubt it will fly.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Don,
Is it conceivable that the warranty could end up being voided under the "abuse or neglect" clause? Not that I am advising it...just asking.
Pwg

Certainly a question that comes to mind. Came to mine as soon as I saw the chewed up pins. But there is always the point that Kawai (as others) sometimes are willing to do things above and beyond in order to receive the good will of their customers.


With this I'm done arguing these points. I think LOL smile


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793186
12/19/18 07:34 PM
12/19/18 07:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,252
New Hampshire
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It is certainly a thorny issue. I too, would have walked away from it as did the local tech. Too much risk involved. I must admit, when it comes to DIY I never would have imagined anythong like this. Now we can add it to our book of "this is why you call a professional" to do do this.

Unless of course there are other factors that we have not been apprised of yet...

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 12/19/18 07:36 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793346
12/20/18 08:32 AM
12/20/18 08:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 4
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Hi guys! The right hammer is a Jahn one, not chinese! It's a nice brand, but it's obviously almost identical design-wise to the Fujan one, I don't know if they just copied them (?): https://www.thomann.de/es/jahn_tuning_hammer.htm

I live in Mallorca, an island, humidity here is always quite high but the piano is in a well isolated (don't know if that's the word) room, I've had a Hosseschrueders upright piano for almost 20 years and it didn't have any major problem because of humidity~

The technician could install a new pin and replaced the 7 nearby pins, some of them are more damaged than others (the 4th one looks a bit scary), here's a pic:

[Linked Image]

I'm not that strong at all and thought I would be okay tuning it with my older hammer, but I guess you're right that the old hammer could be damaging the pins. I've been quite happy with the piano besides that, according to my technician some of the materials used in this piano aren't up to the quality and standard of a Kawai, he knows how Kawais are made and says this doesn't look like one, but I repeat I don't know much about those things and I've played many amazing Kawai pianos, I do like the brand.

Thomann has told me to sent some videos and pictures and I'm waiting for their reply, but as some of you said it's a delicate case and the easiest thing to do in their case would be fully blaming myself for it. After reading all your posts I admit my part of the blame, specially for using a cheap hammer, but I still don't think it was all because of me :c

Last edited by HollowRiku; 12/20/18 08:38 AM.
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793383
12/20/18 10:39 AM
12/20/18 10:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 454
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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They almost look like they were installed when the pinblock glue (between the layers) was still wet. Probably the combination of high torque and a low quality pin was causing you trouble to begin with.
No more flagpoling,
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793430
12/20/18 01:34 PM
12/20/18 01:34 PM
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Well HollowRiku,

At least you're willing to admit you may have a part in it. That's a good quality. Some would never admit the slightest fault.

Did your tech happen to tell you what size these pins are? 1/0, 2/0, etc.? I am pretty sure that the standard pin size in new Kawai pianos is 1/0. (Don Mannino could verify). If these are larger than that, that would argue that the piano was restrung/repinned somewhere along the line which might account for the excessive tightness. If so, it would be good to track down when, where, and who did it.

If you have a micrometer and know how to use it you can measure them yourself. Threaded portion, away from any bending.

Also, when you were "tuning" this piano, was there any "snapping" or "popping" of the pins in the process, or did they move smoothly? (Maybe a dumb question but do say anyway).

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: HollowRiku] #2793540
12/20/18 07:25 PM
12/20/18 07:25 PM
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Scotland
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David Boyce Online content
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Quote
Hi guys! The right hammer is a Jahn one, not chinese! It's a nice brand, but it's obviously almost identical design-wise to the Fujan one, I don't know if they just copied them (?): https://www.thomann.de/es/jahn_tuning_hammer.htm



Thank you HollowRIku for the clarification about the carbon fiber lever. It did strike me, on looking at the photo, that the tip looked like the Jahn tip I have on my Fujan. The Chinese ripoff copies seem to have a different tip.


I imagine that Steve Fujan makes and supplies these levers to Jahn, without his name on them, for them to sell with their own branding. They are a reputable and established supply house, and would not infringe his intellectual property rights, I am sure. Plus, Steve would have mentioned it when he replied to me email about the ripoff Chinese copies.


So if damage by ill-fitting tuning lever tip is a factor with these tuning pins, the lever on the left of the pic would be responsible, not the Jahn-supplied carbon fiber lever.

Re: Kawai GL-10 HUGE problem with the tuning pins [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2793553
12/20/18 08:07 PM
12/20/18 08:07 PM
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Maine, USA
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
......So if damage by ill-fitting tuning lever tip is a factor with these tuning pins, the lever on the left of the pic would be responsible, not the Jahn-supplied carbon fiber lever.


He only switched to the other hammer more recently...
The one on the left is the one used for most of the tunings to date.

Hey, Boyce, what are your thoughts on the length of that tip... I thought it looked terribly short for tuning a grand, to me at least.
I don't see how the clearance is possible. I know when I was in a jam once I tried to use my short Hale #2 on a grand, and busted my knuckles a few times.
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
They almost look like they were installed when the pinblock glue (between the layers) was still wet. Probably the combination of high torque and a low quality pin was causing you trouble to begin with.
No more flagpoling,
-chris

Poor quality tuning pins, Chernobief? I suggest you take that up with Kawai, since you are determined they are faulty.


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
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