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Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2791829
12/16/18 03:53 AM
12/16/18 03:53 AM
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phacke Offline

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I think they have a right to protect their trademark logo. I'm sure they can stop sales of them, but it might be difficult to stop people making reproductions for their own use.
Seem that its is a good idea from the customer's point of view to know what non-S&S parts you are getting in your rebuild (or even, what S&S parts) on paper, but I'm not sure that demand in the memo would hold up legally, considering the automobile analogies already discussed above.


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
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Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2791885
12/16/18 09:10 AM
12/16/18 09:10 AM
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I could understand if people were slapping the Steinway labels on other pianos, but since the issue is putting the labels on Steinways, it is ludicrous. What shall we now call these pianos? Stealth Steinways? Maybe a different name would apply.

I drive a car made by a manufacturer which does not license the logo to third parties, at least for floor mats. This means I can not get third party floor mats with the logo embroidered on them. I must get OEM floor mats, which suck and are in fact inferior in quality to some of the better third party floor mats. By Steinway's thinking I should remove all logos on the vehicle when installing third party floor mats.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: oldMH] #2791905
12/16/18 10:29 AM
12/16/18 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by oldMH
What shall we now call these pianos? Stealth Steinways?


FRANKENSTEINWAYS!!!

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Piano90X] #2792030
12/16/18 03:37 PM
12/16/18 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano90X
Originally Posted by oldMH
What shall we now call these pianos? Stealth Steinways?


FRANKENSTEINWAYS!!!



I love it! "Krankenstein" is the nickname I gave my modified Gibson Les Paul wink

(IMO)

I still consider it a Gibson, in spite of the modifications thumb


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2792106
12/16/18 06:41 PM
12/16/18 06:41 PM
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i think Steinway has a valid point. Rebuilt Steinways are being sold to customers that are not aware of exactly what they are getting. There should be full disclosure to the buyer of a rebuilt piano whether its' a Steinway or any other high end brand worth rebuilding.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2792174
12/16/18 09:36 PM
12/16/18 09:36 PM
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Consider this scenario. I have an old Steinway which I bought at an auction (or from ebay or Craigslist). The vendor claimed that the piano had been restored, but did not know who restored it, and there is no record of what parts were used. Subsequently I decide to sell the piano. The letter would seem to indicate that I cannot advertise my piano as a "Steinway" without violating Steinway's trademark rights. To me this seems absurd. If this is upheld, it will completely kill the market for many (most?) old Steinways.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: David-G] #2792176
12/16/18 09:42 PM
12/16/18 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by David-G
If this is upheld, it will completely kill the market for many (most?) old Steinways.


I think that's exactly what they're trying to do.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: BDB] #2792188
12/16/18 10:14 PM
12/16/18 10:14 PM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
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BDB,
And if the work of the last Steinway tuner standing was of poor quality; poor Steinways would be the result.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: LJC] #2792193
12/16/18 10:32 PM
12/16/18 10:32 PM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
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There are new Steinway being sold that the buyer has no assurance the V-bars are properly shaped and that the metal is not hardened.

There are new Steinways being sold that have overly loose action centers and keybushings that after just a couple of 100 hours playing will become dangerously loose.

There are new Steinway being sold that the agraffe string holes are not properly shaped to allow for proper pivot termination. (And the absurd thing about this is the only truly correct part of the Steinway Duplex Scale patent of 1872 is the explanation of pivot termination, and they coined the term of art!).

The change of the knukle location to reduce leverage that was done in the 1960's in Hamburg and in the early 1980's NY significantly alters the feel from what the company established when it first rose to prominence. I call the reduced leverage actions like that Steinwas!

Steinway calls their rebuilding facility the "Restoration Center". It is obvious they have no intent on performing restorations in any obvious sense of the word since they will install current specifications. This could be construed as a fraud.

I think the policies outlined in "The Letter" are going to be resisted and overturned. Steinway does not own the logo that belongs on a Steinway piano. They only own the rights to control against fraud against them if the logo is used to mislead people. People who buy rebuilt Steinways from independent dealers/rebuilders know it is not a "Factory Authorized" piano. Yet Steinway states in "The Letter" that rebuilders should only use Steinway approved parts. So if one rebuilds with approved parts is the factory "Authorizing" that designation? ABSURD!!!

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 12/16/18 10:33 PM. Reason: Correct sentence syntax

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: David-G] #2792198
12/16/18 10:55 PM
12/16/18 10:55 PM
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phacke Offline

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Originally Posted by David-G
Consider this scenario. I have an old Steinway which I bought at an auction (or from ebay or Craigslist). The vendor claimed that the piano had been restored, but did not know who restored it, and there is no record of what parts were used. Subsequently I decide to sell the piano. The letter would seem to indicate that I cannot advertise my piano as a "Steinway" without violating Steinway's trademark rights. To me this seems absurd. If this is upheld, it will completely kill the market for many (most?) old Steinways.


In my uneducated opinion, you would sell it as a "rebuilt Steinway with unknown parts with rebuilding performed by an unknown rebuilder"


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2792225
12/17/18 01:29 AM
12/17/18 01:29 AM
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Posts: 72
New York, NY
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT

I think the policies outlined in "The Letter" are going to be resisted and overturned.


I agree with you here; it's up to all of us to speak up, and hopefully the folks at Steinway will realize it's not worth pissing off technicians around the country, and so many others. They have been an elegant company for a long time (in my opinion), and are capable being classy, perhaps with a little encouragement.

One of the responses to a share of our Facebook post about this matter seemed right on target to me.

Ralph Nielsen wrote:

I got my copy of the "cease and desist" letter yesterday, even though my occasional work on Steinways is mostly on Golden Era pneumatic players like Duo-Arts that they are not even capable of restoring properly. Supposedly, one of the main selling points of buying a new Steinway is that it retains its value longer than other pianos. That advantage will now disappear instantly if the only option for selling, restoring or repairing an older or well-used instrument without risk of a lawsuit is to send it back to Steinway for restoration at a cost rivaling the purchase of another new one. It is sad to see a formerly great company destroy itself by behaving in such a nasty, unethical manner. I used to tell people interested in buying a new Steinway that while it is a pricey option, that it was not necessarily a bad decision, in the long term. Now I will have to tell them that the lifetime cost of buying a new Steinway has become insanely high because it is impossible to reasonably maintain or resell it, and that it will now depreciate much more quickly than previously.

Last edited by steinwayman18; 12/17/18 01:35 AM.

Ronen

Park Avenue Pianos | Steinway Piano Reseller

https://www.steinwaygrand.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2792227
12/17/18 02:38 AM
12/17/18 02:38 AM
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gp84 Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
There are new Steinway being sold that the buyer has no assurance the V-bars are properly shaped and that the metal is not hardened.

There are new Steinways being sold that have overly loose action centers and keybushings that after just a couple of 100 hours playing will become dangerously loose.

There are new Steinway being sold that the agraffe string holes are not properly shaped to allow for proper pivot termination. (And the absurd thing about this is the only truly correct part of the Steinway Duplex Scale patent of 1872 is the explanation of pivot termination, and they coined the term of art!).

The change of the knukle location to reduce leverage that was done in the 1960's in Hamburg and in the early 1980's NY significantly alters the feel from what the company established when it first rose to prominence. I call the reduced leverage actions like that Steinwas!

Steinway calls their rebuilding facility the "Restoration Center". It is obvious they have no intent on performing restorations in any obvious sense of the word since they will install current specifications. This could be construed as a fraud.

I think the policies outlined in "The Letter" are going to be resisted and overturned. Steinway does not own the logo that belongs on a Steinway piano. They only own the rights to control against fraud against them if the logo is used to mislead people. People who buy rebuilt Steinways from independent dealers/rebuilders know it is not a "Factory Authorized" piano. Yet Steinway states in "The Letter" that rebuilders should only use Steinway approved parts. So if one rebuilds with approved parts is the factory "Authorizing" that designation? ABSURD!!!


It is rather sad to hear that all of this is happening to Steinway and this is yet another reason as to why I am glad to have purchased another brand (i.e., Baldwin SF-10 in good condition) and know that I will have a reliable piano going forward.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: phacke] #2792242
12/17/18 05:11 AM
12/17/18 05:11 AM
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Posts: 2,045
London
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David-G Offline
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Originally Posted by phacke
Originally Posted by David-G
Consider this scenario. I have an old Steinway which I bought at an auction (or from ebay or Craigslist). The vendor claimed that the piano had been restored, but did not know who restored it, and there is no record of what parts were used. Subsequently I decide to sell the piano. The letter would seem to indicate that I cannot advertise my piano as a "Steinway" without violating Steinway's trademark rights. To me this seems absurd. If this is upheld, it will completely kill the market for many (most?) old Steinways.


In my uneducated opinion, you would sell it as a "rebuilt Steinway with unknown parts with rebuilding performed by an unknown rebuilder"

I would like to think that your wording would suffice, but this sentence: "Furthermore, it is a violation of our trademark rights for someone to market or sell a restored/rebuilt piano as a “Steinway” piano unless: (A) the piano uses ONLY genuine Steinway replacement parts or (B) the non-Steinway replacement parts used are incidental to the function of the piano and any such non-Steinway parts used are specifically disclosed to the consumer." seems to make clear that it would not suffice. At any rate, if I were a Steinway owner, I would be worried about taking the risk.

I am very relieved that I own an antique Bluthner and not an antique Steinway, so that I do not have this problem hanging over my head.

Last edited by David-G; 12/17/18 05:15 AM.
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2792251
12/17/18 07:14 AM
12/17/18 07:14 AM
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joe80 Offline
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I'm not sure this is still relevant since it quotes a 2003 case, but have a look anyway:

https://corporate.findlaw.com/intel...rks-for-resale-of-refurbished-goods.html

It seems the law protects buyers from being deceived into thinking they are buying something that they are not. For instance if they bought a reconditioned or simply used Steinway, and thought they were buying a new one or Steinway-restored one due to the re-seller's marketing techniques, then there would be legal grounds for at least an investigation.

If the piano had been reconditioned or rebuilt then as long as the buyer knows exactly how the piano was reconditioned then there would be no legal case.

Most sellers of reconditioned or rebuilt pianos in the UK don't bother about saying "100 percent genuine parts". I know Steinways themselves do, and another who will say "Steinway action and keyboard, our own tuning plank and our own soundboard", and they're open about that from the outset.

Some may say the piano is restored by "Steinway-trained technicians" etc, but they won't say it's "100 percent genuine Steinway parts" unless it is. Most piano buyers these days are intelligent enough to know that if they're paying £25,000 for a rebuilt Steinway O, it probably doesn't have 100 percent genuine Steinway parts, and it won't have a newly installed Steinway soundboard and tuning plank unless heck has frozen over. Rebuilt Steinways in the UK, from Steinways in London start at around £63k if the soundboard and plank are new and £58k if they aren't.

It's for the buyer to decide if the piano they are buying is as good as one from Steinway's, or if it fits their purpose regardless of where it has been built or rebuilt. Once goods have been sold in the UK, there are certain provisions in place that can help the buyer but it tends to be very difficult for buyers to get their money back.

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: David-G] #2792253
12/17/18 07:23 AM
12/17/18 07:23 AM
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CO, USA
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phacke Offline

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Thanks for your comments David-G. My thinking is if you call it a "Rebuilt Steinway" or a "Steinwas" , etc, you are not selling it as "Steinway." But I'm just a blogger here, with no standing and no legal expertise.

> At any rate, if I were a Steinway owner, I would be worried about taking the risk.

I am an Steinway owner, and the worry has not crossed my mind. Maybe because the piano is original and going strong, or maybe because the matter sounds all very fishy. Worry is an emotion, a response that can not always be explained.


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2792504
12/17/18 08:17 PM
12/17/18 08:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
Rockville, MD
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Rockville, MD
I will say more about this (cheers & groans I'm sure...), but thought I'd write this for now.

In the piece I read, Julliard's technicians have been rebuilding Steinways for a long time. What parts were used wasn't mentioned in the article. The term "Golden Age" was used. I just played a full on Steinway rebuild of an "O" from 1910, and as I wrote in another thread, "what's not to like". It was DIFFERENT in some ways from playing a brand new piano, but certainly nice enough. Was it "Golden Age" in some way? I don't know. It wasn't the absolute BEST rebuild I've ever played. It didn't overwhelm me with its Golden Ageness... Is there some "special sauce" the Julliard techs use that give SUPERIOR results to what Steinway NYC does? Again, I don't know. I haven't played those pianos.

Maybe Julliard can get donors to come up with the cash to replace all their pianos instead of rebuilding them, to do factory rebuilds instead of having their own folks do them, and... maybe not. And, if that happens, what if Julliard pulled the plug and decided to go with... another brand?

We all have our favorites, so far be it from me to even make a list at risk of offense.

To be continued.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
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Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Seeker] #2792539
12/17/18 09:56 PM
12/17/18 09:56 PM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
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It is simply cheaper for Juilliard to do the rebuilding themselves since the depth of piano technical expertise available to them is considerable.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 12/17/18 09:57 PM. Reason: typo again!

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: Larry Hofer] #2792543
12/17/18 10:04 PM
12/17/18 10:04 PM
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Oregon USA
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I recently had to make a decision between the two finalists in my piano search, a "counterfeit rebuilt" Steinway and a used but like new Grotrian. I'm glad I chose the Grotrian; I would have hated to have the Piano Police come haul away my FrankenSteinRenner, and at least I can have the Grotrian rebuilt by a rebuilder of my choice in the future. wink

Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: jarobi] #2792546
12/17/18 10:28 PM
12/17/18 10:28 PM
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Nobody is going to haul away anybody's rebuilt Steinway. Steinway might be able to restrict dealers from selling pianos that they have had rebuilt elsewhere without disclosing that fact, but if someone who is not a dealer sells one, there is nothing they can do. Frankly, it may be more trouble than it is worth to sue someone over selling without the disclosure that they want.


Semipro Tech
Re: Policy Letter from Steinway [Re: BDB] #2792585
12/18/18 01:48 AM
12/18/18 01:48 AM
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New York, NY
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Originally Posted by BDB
Nobody is going to haul away anybody's rebuilt Steinway. Steinway might be able to restrict dealers from selling pianos that they have had rebuilt elsewhere without disclosing that fact, but if someone who is not a dealer sells one, there is nothing they can do. Frankly, it may be more trouble than it is worth to sue someone over selling without the disclosure that they want.


You're surely right about that. However, the ramifications here are for everyone. Often when a private individual sells their steinway, it is by means of consignment from a dealer. Steinway & Sons can and should educate buyers all they want, as they do on their "used steinway piano" website. Making a legal threat against owners/sellers is different. The fact that steinway is attempting to interfere here with personal artistic decisions that private owners and businesses are making is unjust. Hopefully they'll come to their senses.

Someone told me today there is something called the "first-sale doctrine". Once a product is sold, the trademark owner loses the right to prohibit the use of the trademark in relation to the article.

Last edited by steinwayman18; 12/18/18 01:50 AM.

Ronen

Park Avenue Pianos | Steinway Piano Reseller

https://www.steinwaygrand.com
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